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Executions

Architect said:
And does the poster who raised Lockerbie anything to counter the Review Commission's view that there may have been a miscarriage of justice in the Megrahi case? If so, he should go and post on Rolfe's thread(s) on it. Otherwise glib posters making references to Megrahi whilst overlooking what is, at the very least, the culpable homicidce of Iranian airline passengers may wish to shut up.
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I see. So one person in the US says something about Lockerbie and suddenly this must mean that Iran Air 655 was murder?
 
Rolfe said:
I agree entirely. I am however opposed to the death penalty even if it could be shown with absolute certainty that everyone executed was guilty. It's a horrific barbarism which civilised societies are gradually outgrowing. I hope we keep on outgrowing it, though a debate I heard on TV this evening showed that some people still have some growing to do.

Rolfe.
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cwalner said:
A Scotswoman considers my country horrifically barbaric and uncivilized. I am so ashamed.:p:blush:
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Architect said:
Casual racism noted.
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Architect said:
Different in the same way as the French are different from the English. Suggesting that the French were barbarians would be casual racism too.
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Ok, now I see. The casual racism was on Rolfe's part as per the hi-lite above.
 
Rolfe said:
I am however opposed to the death penalty even if it could be shown with absolute certainty that everyone executed was guilty. It's a horrific barbarism which civilised societies are gradually outgrowing. Rolfe.
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Why? In what specific manner is it barbarism to execute a guilty murderer?

I oppose executions on several grounds. Innocent people will absolutely be executed. Folks guilty of the crime they are accused of will be sentenced to death for some factor (racial and religious prejudice) other than guilt. Executions (in America) are more expensive than just locking the criminal up for life.

I do not oppose executions on moral grounds, however. If there were a way to esablish absoulte guilt and to fairly apply the death penalty, and it could be swiftly carried out, I'd drop my opposition. I do not see a moral impediment to the death penalty.
 
sarge said:
Why? In what specific manner is it barbarism to execute a guilty murderer?

I oppose executions on several grounds. Innocent people will absolutely be executed. Folks guilty of the crime they are accused of will be sentenced to death for some factor (racial and religious prejudice) other than guilt. Executions (in America) are more expensive than just locking the criminal up for life.

I do not oppose executions on moral grounds, however. If there were a way to esablish absoulte guilt and to fairly apply the death penalty, and it could be swiftly carried out, I'd drop my opposition. I do not see a moral impediment to the death penalty.
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I'd recommend an independent board of full-time experts that review all murder convictions and select only the most ironclad, unambiguous evidence and exacerbating circumstances in which to "advance" a life sentence to a capital one.

We can call them "Death Panels". I understand it's a popular term.
 
AvalonXQ said:
I'd recommend an independent board of full-time experts that review all murder convictions and select only the most ironclad, unambiguous evidence and exacerbating circumstances in which to "advance" a life sentence to a capital one.

We can call them "Death Panels". I understand it's a popular term.
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I'd recommend simply doing away with the death penalty so long as there remains even a remote possibility that people that either didn't do the crime, or that did the crime but were sentenced more harshly than others, are sentenced to die.

Or - we can just accept that sometimes, we are going to kill innocent people, and that that is an acceptable price to pay for vengence. If we clear that hurdle, it all gets easier. A significant majority of those persons sentenced to death are actually guilty - so skip the appeals process and march from the courtroom to the gallows.
 
sarge said:
Or - we can just accept that sometimes, we are going to kill innocent people, and that that is an acceptable price to pay for vengence. If we clear that hurdle, it all gets easier. A significant majority of those persons sentenced to death are actually guilty - so skip the appeals process and march from the courtroom to the gallows.
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Rawls' veil of ignorance, anyone?
 
There's a story in Glasgow Herald columnist Tom Shields' eponymous Diary that after a royal death (it might have been the Queen Mother), quantities of black cloth were distributed to courtrooms as a mark of respect.

One miscreant, brought up to the dock for sentencing, promptly fainted when he saw said material being laid out. (Traditionally the judge passing sentence of death placed on their head a black capWP).
 
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SezMe said:
I doubt it. The "vast majority" of executions in the USA take place in Texas. If licensing boards prevented physicians from participating in executions, the state would pass a law allowing nurses to attend an execution. If the nurses licensing board passed a restriction on nurses, ..... It would get down to the point where an execution would have to be attended by a 7-11 clerk.
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Jobs program, at work for you, and the American economy.

Check figures: consider the proportion of people in Texas as percentage of American population when you puzzle out "vast majority" and then remove from consideration any state that does not use the death penalty.

What do your numbers show you now?

Go back about six years, and the coyote (from Mexico) and the truck driver, from the US of A, who during their trafficking of illegal aliens ended up leaving about 70 persons locked inside of a trailer truck near Victoria Texas. In the heat. 19 dead.

Just left them there to die.

I find the death penalty too merciful for that little pair of scum. It's the worst we (the state) can do to them, but I don't think that's the sentence either of them got.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/us/05verdict.html

Texas may be getting soft on crime after all. :p That one, for my money, richly deserved the hangman's noose.

So it goes.
 
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Darth Rotor said:
Check figures: consider the proportion of people in Texas as percentage of American population when you puzzle out "vast majority" and then remove from consideration any state that does not use the death penalty.
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According to Prof. Wiki, some relevant post 1976 data are:

State|Killed|On Death Row
Texas|475|321
Virginia|109|11
All other states pale in comparison.

I'm not going to do all the other math you suggested, although it might provide better insight. But I will stand by my "vast majority" assertion.

ETA: Regarding the case you cited, I'm not going to defend or promote the final penalty. I will just say that, for me personally, life in prison would be a stiffer penalty than the death penalty. The former is a slow, tortuous death penalty, the latter a quick, merciful one.
 
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SezMe said:
According to Prof. Wiki, some relevant post 1976 data are:

State|Killed|On Death Row
Texas|475|321
Virginia|109|11

All other states pale in comparison.

I'm not going to do all the other math you suggested, although it might provide better insight. But I will stand by my "vast majority" assertion.
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Understood, but as one of the most populous states in the nation, what would you expect?

Looks like we have a lot of people committing capital offenses.
A small fraction of them get the death penalty.

See my example above. As with the Jasper truck driving miscreant, it's there for a good reason, but it isn't always applied.

475 in the last 35 years.
 
Darth Rotor said:
I find the death penalty too merciful for that little pair of scum. It's the worst we (the state) can do to them, but I don't think that's the sentence either of them got.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/us/05verdict.html

Texas may be getting soft on crime after all. :p That one, for my money, richly deserved the hangman's noose.

So it goes.
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Personally, I'd rather have them studied to figure out why they are like that and why they did that. Then studied further to see if it is possible to rehabilitate such people (in a controlled environment at least).
 
Drachasor said:
Personally, I'd rather have them studied to figure out why they are like that and why they did that. Then studied further to see if it is possible to rehabilitate such people (in a controlled environment at least).
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I'd rather save the money and spend it on education, thanks. Plants need food too.

We differ in opinion, no biggee. :cool:
 
Darth Rotor said:
I'd rather save the money and spend it on education, thanks. Plants need food too.

We differ in opinion, no biggee. :cool:
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Figuring out why people commit crimes and how to reform people is an important step in stopping criminals from appearing in the first place and having more cost-effective ways of dealing with the criminals that do show up. Granted, we understand some of this, but I think there's a lot more we can learn. Given how the USA, for instance, has a ridiculously large number of people in prison per capita, it would be well worth it to look at ways to reduce this number safely.*

The studying is about the long-term payoff.

I grant that I am against the State killing people if it is avoidable, but I think that's independent of the scientific benefit of such study.

*I grant a good portion of this is due to imprisoning harmless drug abusers for a long time.
 
Alt+F4 said:
How does lesser degrees of evil matter when both men are equally dead? Either one is for the death penalty or one is opposed to it.
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If one is opposed to physical violence, surely a playful slap on the back is as bad as a kick to the nuts with a running start.

Hopefully this clarifies the silliness of saying if you oppose the death penalty you must think every execution is wrong.

I think the premise of someone who maliciously murders someone for no reason ( self defense, accident, etc.) is great. But only if we can guarantee it is only these people and only in these circumstances that it is being performed.

Seeing as, as of right now, we cannot do this, we need to put the death penalty into the "maybe" pile, until we gain the ability to do so. Maybe this will be never, but i would rather not use a good tool than cut my finger off because i can't use it right.
 
That must be of considerable comfort to the odd finger that gets cut off by accident.
 
sadhatter said:
If one is opposed to physical violence, surely a playful slap on the back is as bad as a kick to the nuts with a running start.
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A playful slap on the back is NOT violence.

Hopefully this clarifies the silliness of saying if you oppose the death penalty you must think every execution is wrong.
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Every execution is wrong.

I think the premise of someone who maliciously murders someone for no reason ( self defense, accident, etc.) is great.
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How can a killing in self-defense or an accident be malicious? Why do you even use the term murder to describe these type of deaths? If it's self-defense or an accident then it's homocide, not murder, which is an unlawful killing.
 
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