Excercise science

stingy get

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Mar 27, 2004
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I thought about posting this in the sports section, but:

A) I think this is more to do with medecine

B) this section has more traffic

I like to keep fit, but over the years I've heard many things concerning exercise which I'm not sure about.

Much of the information I've found seems to be confusing or even contradictory and I'd be interested in hearing other peoples ideas, if not the facts.

Firstly, aching after exercise. Some people ache the morning after exercise. I've heard/read that this is bad because it means they've overdone it and too much 'bad stuff' , (lactic acid?) has built up in their muscles. I've also heard/read the it's good - it means they pushed themselves hard enough to have an effect.

I usually ache two days after my work-outs. I've been told this is different to the ache you get the morning after, and that it's the same. Some have said that it's bad, it's your muscles being broken down after being overtaxed. But I've also heard that it's good, it's your muscles breaking down and being re-built stronger after pushing them hard!

I've got quite a few questions like this, but this is the most obvious one. I'd be interested to hear what people here think.
 
Being sore after a workout is not necessarily a bad thing, and some soreness is to be expected, especially when one first starts (or after one changes ones routine). Of course, it depends a lot on what you're exercising for.

If someone is exercising just to be active, not to build muscle or stamina but simply, say, a 30 minute exercise program 3 times a week, then they probably aren't doing enough to be sore. In this case, soreness could very well be a sign of injury (joint damage, strain, sprain, etc). However, these are typically noticed immediately :)

For other types of workouts, one typically works to muscle failure. This is true of strength training (high resistence, low repititions) and stamina/tone training (low weight, high repititions). When one does wokr to failure, soreness is expected. THis should lessen as one gets used to the exercises...the first few weeks on a workout plan you'll probably get sore, but it should lessen after this. Likewise, if you switch up your plan, change out a few exercises, etc, the soreness will come back fromt he new exercises.

Is it a bad thing? Yes and no. It is caused by a build up of lactic acid, but this is a by-product of your muscles working. It does not mean you over-did it. However, one thing that most trainers will tell you is that you should NOT work out the same muscles until the soreness is gone. If, for example, you were on a 3-day rotation weight training schedule (i.e.-Day 1 upper body, Day 2 lower body, Day 3 rest), and your arms were still a little sore on Day 1 of your second rotation, you should NOT go ahead and do the exercise. Wait until the muscles heal. Working out more while you're already sore tends to tear down what you've already built up, and doesn't do you as much good. Even once a week is enough to maintain a level of strength, so one shouldn't worry about "losing" their gains. In stamina training, one should build up to it slowly anyway, so again, no harm in waiting a day.

IN short, no, it's not a bad thing, but you do need to be aware of it and let your body heal before working the muscles again. Also, stretching before and after your workout, and on the days when the soreness appears, can help reduce some of the pain and stiffness.
 
I'm currently rethinking some things after reading some of Pavel Tsatsoulines stuff - especially what he says about not training to failure. Too early to evaluate yet but it fits some of my experience over the years. Anyone able to refute or bolster his ideas?
 
Thanks Huntsman - that's pretty much what I thought. I don't workout the sore muscles, I switch to other exercises. One thought though - if, say, your legs are sore from a strength workout, is it OK to do a stamina workout? I ride to work for my stamina workout and sometimes find that my legs ache a bit from the strength workout the evening before - am I losing some gains because of this?

Wudang, a couple of years ago Pavel was flavour-of-the-month in many martial arts circles, (I presume from your name that you're into CMA or at least some martial art). Some people claimed amazing gains, some said it did nothing. It seemed to be one of those things - you had to try it yourself . However, IMO if it was so revolutionary and effective, kwoons and dojos everywhere would switch to it - I don't think that's happened.
 
stingy:

I don't think light exercise would be a problem, but I would try to avoid anything too strenuous. You definately want to avoid training to failure multiple times. However, the legs are mostly long-burn type muscle fibre, so they are more adaptable to training. Calves and abs are two other areas that can be trained more often.

As for training to failure, I can only speak from my personal experience. My brother trains to failure, and is currently 205 lbs. at 5'10" with body fat under 5%. I used a training to failure method, and within 1 month saw a 20% increase in strangth across almost all muscle groups I worked, with a 15 pound gain in muscle mass (and corresponding decrese in BFP) over about 3 to 4 months. I see more strength increases more rapidly with failure training than with any other type.

For general cardio/exercise, then training to failure is not necessary. Nor is it necessary simply to maintain a state, rather than gain.

Onr thing to remember is that much more comes into play than just the workour schedule. One also has to pay attention to diet (both total intake and nutrient intake), sleep habits, fluids, etc. For example, I have a high metabolism. When working out heavily (4 day rotation), I need an intake greater than 4000 calories/day to see much in the way of mass increases (otherwise I get nothing but the nerve synchronization strength increases). I use protein shakes to acheive this, as they are an easy way to get calories and amino acids without excess fat. I avoid most of the supplements out there, though; I've found that most make a difference only in mentality. There is some evidence to support the use of creatine, but that's spotty and creatine comes with its own issues. Protein and carbohydrate suppliments are simply alternate foods, and generally are fine to take. A lot of the other things, vitamin packages, fat burners, anti-catabolics, etc, are generally ways to make your urine yor expensive or stiffen your liver and kidneys.
 
It's called delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). As of the late 1990's no one really knew what caused it. Source: Covert Bailey.
 
Huntsman

thanks for the info. When I ride I tend to spin the wheels to keep the load down and the workrate up, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

I have to say I'm not concerned with huge muscle or strength gains. I just like to stay in shape. I agree that this has a lot do with your whole life, (diet, sleep, stress, etc) and I try to address these issues.

Also, I'm planning to get back into martial arts later this year, (MMA rather than CMA this time) and don't fancy getting thrown all around the training hall by the youngsters.

teabag - interesting - I guess that's why there's so much conflicting informaton out there.

NEXT QUESTIONs, (feel free to carry on posting on the previous one):

Upper and Lower abs - are they two separate muscles or separate groups of muscles? Can they be exercised separately?
What happens if you only exercise one part?
Lastly, I read sonewhere that the abs are different to every other muscle in that they can be exercised everyday to failure without problems - doesn't sound right to me, any thoughts?
 
Your abs are not two muscles, or even really two groups of muscles. Your abs are made up of mutliple, overlapped muscles. They are typically split into four groups: Upper, lower, and the right and left obliques.

The upper abs are targetted more by sit ups, and are basically from your waist to your sternum. The lower abs are hit more by exercises such as leg raises, and cover from the waist down. The obliques are the abdominal muscles on the sides of your abdomen, from the lower ribs to the hips. They're targetted by side bends and to a degree by "Rocky" sit ups.

Your abs and calves are different from other muscle groups and can be worked more often. I wouldn't say every day, but I work abs and calves twice as often as other muscle groups. The reason for this is simple: they're already in fairly good shape just because you're alive. Laughing, crying, speaking, breathing, posture, and almost all forms of movement involve the abs to some degree. Likewise, walking, running, standing, balance, and posture all involve the calves. Because these muscles are already more used to regular work, they can be worked more often. Again, though, the rule is not to work them again if they are still sore from the last workout.
 
Huntsman

What you say makes sense, and goes along with most of the information I get. Every-so-often I hear/read information which seems a bit screwy, (like exercising the abs more often).

Mind if I ask where you get your information from? If you see something you're sure not about, where do you go to get your answers?

When I start doing searches on the net, I usually end up with more conflicting information than I started with! Exercise sites seem to consist of peoples opinions rather than facts, and medical sites are often too technical to get a simple answer.
 
stingy get said:
Mind if I ask where you get your information from? If you see something you're sure not about, where do you go to get your answers?
Click to expand...

I cheat :)

I've been a medic in the military for almost 14 years (active and reserves), so that gives me a good grounding. Also, my older brother is a Physician's Assistant (running a successful practice in Vero Beach, FL) and heavily into body building. So my own experience gets me started, I ask my brother anything I'm not sure of, and I generally see what http://www.quackwatch.com has to say about the supplements and such.
 
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