Excellent rant on Craigslist

[RobRoy]

So self-delusion could be argued to be of benefit in situations like this, where one's course of action cannot be altered and one is provided with a peace of mind that would not otherwise be possible....

I suppose we could also argue that the self-delusion of someone watching over you is also helpful in other respects. The concept can promote good behavior in some, and even saintly behavior in others, which benefit the general community.

It could also be an ease in times of personal stress.

Anything else?

 

[andyandy]

Yeah, cons seem to know exactly how to play the redemption game. For many it's a merry-go-round: sin, be absolved, sin again, be absolved again, and so on. And if it gets really tough, the Devil made them do it.


M.

Indeed one only has to look to George Bush's use of the born-again label as a get out of jail free card to exempt him from considerations of anything he did prior to his " redemption." convicted drink driver? Failed businessman? Alcoholic? Cocaine user? Draft dodger? Hey no problem, that was the different George Bush. This one is with Jesus

Political gold....

 

[Moochie]

Indeed one only has to look to George Bush's use of the born-again label as a get out of jail free card to exempt him from considerations of anything he did prior to his " redemption." convicted drink driver? Failed businessman? Alcoholic? Cocaine user? Draft dodger? Hey no problem, that was the different George Bush. This one is with Jesus

Political gold....

I didn't say cons were the only ones adept at this.

M.

 

[andyandy]

I suppose we could also argue that the self-delusion of someone watching over you is also helpful in other respects. The concept can promote good behavior in some, and even saintly behavior in others, which benefit the general community.

It could also be an ease in times of personal stress.

Anything else?

There have been a number of scientific studies also discussed on these pages in which in general population studies where socioeconomic factors are controlled, it is apparent that people who regard themselves as religious tend to do better on various measures of happiness and emotional well-being. There are also specific studies such as those with elderly folk in nursing homes who seem to cope better with depression if religious........

Now I'm not suggesting that these studies aren't contentious, but I believe that the mixture of positive self-delusion and social network provided by religious involvement could explain such discrepancies. It is also possible that some people are genetically more predisposed to religion than others, and such genetic discrepancies also account for differing personality types. Though that may be even more contentious.....

The trouble is threads which discuss this normally get swamped very quickly with people getting angry that anyone should accept that there is anything positive about religion whatsoever, or that there could be any tangential benefits to anyone. And as such it is not discussed too often

 

[andyandy]

I didn't say cons were the only ones adept at this.

M.

The only difference between cons and politicians is that politicians haven't been caught yet...

 

[RobRoy]

There have been a number of scientific studies [snip]

Interesting. Thanks for the summation.

The trouble is threads which discuss this normally get swamped very quickly with people getting angry that anyone should accept that there is anything positive about religion whatsoever, or that there could be any tangential benefits to anyone. And as such it is not discussed too often

Yes, I've seen that, and it's quite unfortunate, especially on a forum of this nature. I've seen arguments that parallel almost exactly the same premise that fundamentalists try on the other side. Neither are very open to discussion.

 

[godofpie]

I'd say that there is even a more basic problem with the stat in question: there is a huge incentive for people when convicted to suddenly convert -- "jump on the Jesus train" -- in order to make a change of heart argument for parole, etc. Regardless ofhow well a poll was designed or implemented, I have to suspect that the numbers might be just a tad skewed towards religion -- and probably, specifically toward Christianity.

I agree. When people "find god" in prison the first thing that comes to their mind is not Vishnu.

 

[articulett]

Interesting. Thanks for the summation.



Yes, I've seen that, and it's quite unfortunate, especially on a forum of this nature. I've seen arguments that parallel almost exactly the same premise that fundamentalists try on the other side. Neither are very open to discussion.

I suspect this is a self aggrandizing straw man. Why don't you cut and paste from some fundamentalist sites and show us how anyone other than a religious fundamentalist is arguing similarly. I think you are reading stuff that isn't there to prop up a false stereotype.

The people who assert this, never offer examples...


Or when they do-- it's laughably unlike anything involving "fundamentalism". You have to have a fundamental group of beliefs or laws in order to be a fundamentalism.

But, thanks for playing.

 

[Beerina]

Fairly unremarkable enough...

It does however throw about this particular statistic

[Re: Athiests are 14% of the population, but only 0.00000018% of the prison population]

Which has been discussed at length previously. The sourcing of it is dubious at best. If we are to believe it, it is provided from a single source personal website where the gentleman claims that he receive the data from an e-mail. I would suggest that it could not be regarded as a great source. Then when we look at the data in more detail, it conflates atheists with non believers to arrive at the 14% figure, but then decides to compare this statistic with self-declared atheists. We are also given no information as to how the information was collected, when it was collected or what questions was asked. We are then asked to pretend that considerations of an inmate's declared religion play no factor in parole.

To say nothing about claiming you're an athiest in prison might be as dangerous as wearing pink leotards.

 

[gypsey]

Moochie

Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger
I'd say that there is even a more basic problem with the stat in question: there is a huge incentive for people when convicted to suddenly convert -- "jump on the Jesus train" -- in order to make a change of heart argument for parole, etc. Regardless ofhow well a poll was designed or implemented, I have to suspect that the numbers might be just a tad skewed towards religion -- and probably, specifically toward Christianity.

Yeah, cons seem to know exactly how to play the redemption game. For many it's a merry-go-round: sin, be absolved, sin again, be absolved again, and so on. And if it gets really tough, the Devil made them do it.
M.

my dad was an old pro at this, he was in and out of prison my whole life the last few times because of me and he would get really pious and christian while inside and then laugh about it when he was out
he knew more about the bible than anyone i have ever met and wasn't afraid to use it to his advantage, in or out of prison

 

[RobRoy]

I suspect this is a self aggrandizing straw man. [snip]

But, thanks for playing.

No, no, thank you for playing! Double thanks for proving andyandy's and my point.

You're a quite intelligent individual, articulett, and if you could see past your own biases, I think you'd be a force to be reckoned with. I'd even enjoy your posts that much more, but as it stands, I need look no further than your own rants against religion, faith, or the faithful to find evidence of arguments I mentioned regarding those who are "blind to the truth" which you hold to. That you're unwilling to see the parallels is all the more proof.

Thank you and please come again!

I agree. When people "find god" in prison the first thing that comes to their mind is not Vishnu.

In the US and other Christian-majority nations, I'm sure this is true, but I wonder if it also holds in India. Likewise, wouldn't a prisoner in Japan or similar Buddhist-leaning nations come to Buddhism more readily? Any stats on this kind of thing?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Save for the erroneous stats, I found the rant to be articulate and refreshingly without the defensiveness that sometimes undermines the validity of the atheist perspective. Statistics are like a magician’s cape, wand, and hat:
- Best case scenario: they divert, distract, and mesmerize
- Worst case scenario: they pervert reality and conceal the truth

I too wish I had more background information regarding what elicited this specific rant.

 

[Moochie]

<snip>


In the US and other Christian-majority nations, I'm sure this is true, but I wonder if it also holds in India. Likewise, wouldn't a prisoner in Japan or similar Buddhist-leaning nations come to Buddhism more readily? Any stats on this kind of thing?

I don't think that this would work in Buddhism, nor in Hinduism. I certainly haven't seen anything anywhere to suggest that this happens among Buddhists or Hindus. Buddhism, if I'm not mistaken, is not anything like Christianity. If a prisoner decided to become a Buddhist, the warden would probably say, "good for you," and think no more of it. It would have no more relevance than if the prisoner took up woodcarving.


M.

 

[RobRoy]

I don't think that this would work in Buddhism, nor in Hinduism. I certainly haven't seen anything anywhere to suggest that this happens among Buddhists or Hindus. Buddhism, if I'm not mistaken, is not anything like Christianity. If a prisoner decided to become a Buddhist, the warden would probably say, "good for you," and think no more of it. It would have no more relevance than if the prisoner took up woodcarving.

I think you misunderstood my question. I was not saying that prisoners in the US are exonerated by jumping on the Jesus train, just wondering if prisoners who felt remorse, or wanted to show that they felt remorse, would join the major religion of their area. I think it would be rarer for an Indian to find Jesus in a Mumbai prison, but not so rare for the same prisoner to find Vishnu. <shrug>

 

[Moochie]

I think you misunderstood my question. I was not saying that prisoners in the US are exonerated by jumping on the Jesus train, just wondering if prisoners who felt remorse, or wanted to show that they felt remorse, would join the major religion of their area. I think it would be rarer for an Indian to find Jesus in a Mumbai prison, but not so rare for the same prisoner to find Vishnu. <shrug>

I understood you. I just don't think that you would find people in countries like Thailand or India jumping on a "Vishnu" or "Buddha" train when imprisoned. Particularly not a "Buddha" train. You need to know something of the cultures in those countries to understand why this might be so.

M.

 

[RobRoy]

I understood you. I just don't think that you would find people in countries like Thailand or India jumping on a "Vishnu" or "Buddha" train when imprisoned. Particularly not a "Buddha" train.

Nopers, you missed it. In contrast to a convict, while in jail, becoming a Christian, this seems much less likely to happen in India or Japan. Those cultures tend to not be Christianity-oriented, and so it seems likely that if a convict was to convert, or jump on some train, they would convert to the dominate religious system with which they were more familiar, rather than Christianity. I was curious what the conversion stats of convicts in those nations were in contrast with those of the US which is Christianity-oriented.

You need to know something of the cultures in those countries to understand why this might be so.

Wasn't looking for mass droves of converts, just curious about the numbers, but please do explain "why this might be so". Thanks.

 

[andyandy]

I think you misunderstood my question. I was not saying that prisoners in the US are exonerated by jumping on the Jesus train, just wondering if prisoners who felt remorse, or wanted to show that they felt remorse, would join the major religion of their area. I think it would be rarer for an Indian to find Jesus in a Mumbai prison, but not so rare for the same prisoner to find Vishnu. <shrug>

On a similar theme (but in the opposite direction - ie prisoners being attracted to minority religions due to anger rather than remorse) it was reported recently that UK authorities were increasingly worried about the radicalisation of young men in British prisons by fundamentalist Islam. Indeed it was argued that prisoners were a fertile recruiting ground as they were full of disenfranchised and often disadvantaged men with an axe to grind against authority, and due to the increased number of terrorist arrests, these men were exposed to very charismatic exponents of extremist islam.....



I don't know how accurate such reports are, it is possible that it is all somewhat overblown in this instance.... but I would imagine that such things would be an issue in prisons. Indeed I remember reading Malcolm X's autobiography in which he talked at length about his conversion to the nation of islam whilst in prison, so it's happened at least once

 

[RobRoy]

On a similar theme (but in the opposite direction - ie prisoners being attracted to minority religions due to anger rather than remorse) it was reported recently that UK authorities were increasingly worried about the radicalisation of young men in British prisons by fundamentalist Islam. [snip]

I just stumbled across that report.

Indeed I remember reading Malcolm X's autobiography in which he talked at length about his conversion to the nation of islam whilst in prison, so it's happened at least once

That was exactly what I thought about when I saw the report, although I didn't read it, I just watched the Spike Lee movie.

 

[godofpie]

my dad was an old pro at this, he was in and out of prison my whole life the last few times because of me and he would get really pious and christian while inside and then laugh about it when he was out
he knew more about the bible than anyone i have ever met and wasn't afraid to use it to his advantage, in or out of prison

Thats very interesting.I hired a guy a couple of years ago that had just got out of prison. I had met him in rehab about 4 years before that. He did not stay sober after rehab and got locked up. When he first got out he was staying on the straight and narrow, going to church, involved with his family and church, not a bible thumper but involved, but after about 60 days he dropped that facade and was back to his old self. Selling drugs and partying. We were placing bets on how long it would take for him to get locked back up. Within 30 he had participated in a drive by and killed a guy and is now going to spend the rest of his life in prison. It seems to me cons come in all shapes and sizes and will use whatever is at their disposal to further their gains.

 

[godofpie]

Does atheism have a goal? It appears to me that when arguments occur the atheist standpoint is "atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more." and "Prove it. Provide poof and then we can talk." It would seem to me that as an atheist (and I'm not sure that is what I am but for the sake of argument) I would like to convince others that my way of thinking is right. That critical thinking and the atheist viewpoint is a better way to live life than one found through religion. Is secular humanism religion for atheists?

No, no, thank you for playing! Double thanks for proving andyandy's and my point.

You're a quite intelligent individual, articulett, and if you could see past your own biases, I think you'd be a force to be reckoned with. I'd even enjoy your posts that much more, but as it stands, I need look no further than your own rants against religion, faith, or the faithful to find evidence of arguments I mentioned regarding those who are "blind to the truth" which you hold to. That you're unwilling to see the parallels is all the more proof.

Thank you and please come again!

Agreed. I very much enjoy reading articulett's posts. She is very passionate about the subjects she chooses to post about. I imagine when she was a woo, she was also a force to be reckoned with.

Rather, it is the non-belief of atheists that bothers them. These people have faith so thoroughly engrained in their lives that to see somebody without a trace threatens them. They simply cannot conceive of somebody not believing in a deity of some sort. The idea is completely foreign to them, and therefore menacing. It forces them to evaluate their own beliefs. They become defensive and attack because the things they hold intrinsically and unquestionably sacred are being challenged by the mere philosophical position of another

IMHO the reason the religious can't or won't let go of their gods is the fear of the unknown. How do you, the atheist, deal with the thought of death? Not just yours but those that are close to you? It is a very comforting thought to believe that you and your loved ones will all be together again (just the ones you liked of course, not the uncle you couldn't stand or the cousin that never payed back that loan). Do you have coping skills that help you to deal with the thought of death or is it just something you don't think about? Mine is if matter is neither created or destroyed then I will be here forever in some form or another.