Evolution: the Facts.

[Dancing David]

I really don't see how someone can not think a great deal of all behavior is due to instinctual responses.

Um, you don't know how to feed your self instinctualy, it is learned. Some animals do have hard wiring for cetain behaviors, but humans don't. Most of it is learned through association and conditioning.

Drinking water is a learned behavior. The actual swallowing is reflexive and intentional, but learning to drink when you are thirsty is learned.

 

[Wowbagger]

Maybe we should discuss this else where.

It might be a good idea to start another thread.

Infants do not show a response to visual cliffs.

A lot of instincts develop along with cognition.

Infants don't have the cognition to recognize what a cliff would imply.

To assume all instincts are present when one is born is absurd. Like anything else in the body, there is no reason to assume a lot of wouldn't take time to develop.

Human males tend to have "adam's apples". Babies generally do not. I guess that means a baby can never be a human male, by your logic.
A lot of brain functionality could be the same way. Why would anyone think otherwise?!

To assume all instincts must be universal, and without exception, is also absurd. Quadruped are animals with four legs, and dogs are quadrupeds. If a dog is born with only two legs, does that mean it is not really a dog, or that dogs are not really quadrupeds?

 

[Kumar]

If humans have instincts (and I think they do), these will be stored in our genes, or another data medium that is replicated along with them, so yes all humans will have the same instincts - with variations, just like we do not all look the same.

Sorry but you told; " By the time you have learned the behaviour, all the genes have already been expressed."

Does it not suggest that all humans should have same & consistent instincts?

And I think not. The tossing and killing is not necessarily beneficial for dog survival in a human world. Natural selection, in this case selection pressure from humans, will probably weed out dogs that tend to do too much killing.

Yes. Cat killing by dog in unnecessary for them.

 

[Kumar]

From personal experience, one of my dogs beats himself senseless trying to shake a soccer ball attached to a short tether. Time will tell whether this is a survival disadvantage.

Yes it can be productive to understand about "senseless/purposeless instincts" like dogs killing cats. Can these be taken that it is just for excercising, entrtainment or to avoid boring?

 

[steenkh]

Sorry but you told; " By the time you have learned the behaviour, all the genes have already been expressed."

Does it not suggest that all humans should have same & consistent instincts?

I already said "yes, all humans will have the same instincts".

 

[Kumar]

I already said "yes, all humans will have the same instincts".

Thanks. It is bit surprising.

How can you differenciate between animal & humans in using their instincts? Can we say other animals go more as per their instincts, but humans go more as per their learned behaviour?

 

[steenkh]

Thanks. It is bit surprising.

How can you differenciate between animal & humans in using their instincts? Can we say other animals go more as per their instincts, but humans go more as per their learned behaviour?

Humans have a lot of learned behaviour, and if Dancing David is right, we have almost only learned behaviour. But animals also have a lot of learned behaviour. It is simply a mixture, and it varies from one species to the next how the proportion is between learning and instinct.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Yes. Cat killing by dog in unnecessary for them.

Dogs seem to form a line of demarcation in their minds that separates prey animals from others that are either uninteresting or are actual or potential pack members. However, where the line is drawn seems to differ from dog to dog.

My dog is riveted by hamsters, mice, and rats, but is not interested in lizards, tarantulas, and (for the most part) birds. He seems to treat our cats as pack members, but an anonymous cat on the street sets off his hunting instincts, and he'll chase it.

From a distance, he seems to see sheep as prey, but up close he gets intimidated and doesn't know what to make of them.

Of course, I'm only interpreting his behavior. I could be way off.

 

[Kumar]

Humans have a lot of learned behaviour, and if Dancing David is right, we have almost only learned behaviour. But animals also have a lot of learned behaviour. It is simply a mixture, and it varies from one species to the next how the proportion is between learning and instinct.

Are we loosing our instincts? I am not sure whether wild animals living in jungle?natural environment are also loosing instincts or only pet animals?

 

[jimbob]

Continuing the derail about instinct.

Several years ago on BBC Radio4 there was an edition of "The Material World*" that included an interview with a geneticist who (IIRC) claimed that the herding impulse was so strong in border collies that they would try to heard balls the first time they saw them, and that Newfoundlands had an impulse to go into water, that if you gave puppies a bowl of water, they'd jump in.

He was crossing the two breeds, looking at which behaviours each dog had, and looking at the genetic markers.


My recollection was good: Here is the first google hit for a search on that.

What aspects of behavior are inherited?



There are over 120 recognized breeds of dog, defined by specific physical and behavioral characteristics. The Border Collie is a rather small (35-40 pounds), black or tan-and-white dog originally from Scotland. These dogs have a strong instinct to collect and contain objects, such as sheep, cattle, groups of children, or even inanimate objects like tennis balls. In both physical and behavioral traits the Newfoundland is very different from the Border Collie. The Newfoundland is a large (120-150 pounds), black dog with a massive square head that displays a natural instinct for water rescueþthese dogs will jump from a boat or swim long distances to reach drowning victims. Their oily coat and webbed toes are ideal for swimming. When presented for the first time with a water bowl, a Newfoundland puppy will step in the water; a Border Collie puppy only uses the bowl for drinking. While it is not surprising that the physical traits of dog breeds are inherited, it is quite clear that behavioral traits must also be influenced by inheritance.

Jasper Rine, a genetics professor at the University of California at Berkeley, has long been puzzled by the behavioral traits of pure-bred dogs. He has recently decided to combine his love of dogs with his love of genetics to try to determine to what extent simple behaviors in dogs are inherited. His approach is to mate a Newfoundland with a Border Collie and then examine the physical traits and the behaviors of the puppies that develop. Once the puppies reach sexual maturity they can be mated to examine the inheritance of traits through a second generation. Dr. Rine and his colleagues hope to identify specific genes in dogs that contribute to a particular behavior. Information derived from his research on dogs may be a valuable first step in identifying genes that affect human behavior, which is known from studies of identical twins to be strongly genetically influenced. In addition, these studies may identify some of the genes controlling morphological differences in all vertebrates.

*I'd recommend listening to this programme if possible - the format usually consists of two pretty unrelated slots, each consisting of the presenter (Quentin Cooper) talking to a scientist (or group of scientists) about their research for about 15-minutes. He asks the sort of questions that an interested lay-person might ask if they had a good general knowledge about science.

BBC website here

 

[Aitch]

He was crossing the two breeds, looking at which behaviours each dog had, and looking at the genetic markers.

Did he end up with a lot of wet sheep?

 

[steenkh]

Are we loosing our instincts?

Many animals have lost instincts in favour of learning, and humans have possible taken this even further, but I do not think we have lost any instincts since we became homo sapiens, if we had any to begin with.

I am not sure whether wild animals living in jungle?natural environment are also loosing instincts or only pet animals?

I do not think you should look for the instincts on the floor or elsewhere. If animals are losing instincts it is a process as slow as evolution itself. Besides, the urge to learn could be termed an instinct in itself.

 

[jimbob]

Did he end up with a lot of wet sheep?

I think that was the general idea.

Professor Rine came across as someone who thought this was pretty amusing, and also as someone who liked dogs.

 

[Kumar]

Many animals have lost instincts in favour of learning, and humans have possible taken this even further, but I do not think we have lost any instincts since we became homo sapiens, if we had any to begin with.

I don't know loosing intincts in favour of learning is beneficial. Instict can be considered as a natural gift to us--somewhat nature, inheritance, constitution etc. whereas learning as social gift--somewhat unnatural, unconstituional, acquired etc. Instinct don't involve our actions with consicious mind whereas learning behaviour do involve these. [in cultural/sipritual way, these can be considered as Dhrama(true religion) & Karma.]

I do not think you should look for the instincts on the floor or elsewhere. If animals are losing instincts it is a process as slow as evolution itself. Besides, the urge to learn could be termed an instinct in itself.

I am not sure if we loose our natural signals---learning behaviour at the cost of instincts. Probably, we may somewhat be loosing our autonomic nervous system(involutary, fight or flight, rest & digest etc.) on a/c of it....& may be more prone to get silent death on ultimate.

 

[steenkh]

I don't know loosing intincts in favour of learning is beneficial. Instict can be considered as a natural gift to us--somewhat nature, inheritance, constitution etc. whereas learning as social gift--somewhat unnatural, unconstituional, acquired etc. Instinct don't involve our actions with consicious mind whereas learning behaviour do involve these. [in cultural/sipritual way, these can be considered as Dhrama(true religion) & Karma.]

Why do you think instincts are only beneficial? An instinct to distrust all strangers would be better replaced by learning which strangers to trust and which not to trust. The instinct to flee from a fire would be bad for a fireman. he instinct of a fish to snap at anything that moves is used humans to catch them, and so on.

I am not sure if we loose our natural signals---learning behaviour at the cost of instincts. Probably, we may somewhat be loosing our autonomic nervous system(involutary, fight or flight, rest & digest etc.) on a/c of it....& may be more prone to get silent death on ultimate.

Our intelligence is a far better tool than instincts inherited from species that did not have the brain analyse a situation. It is the reason that we have achieved all we have today: We can adapt to new circumstances in a way that could never have been achieved with instincts. The cost is a lengthy childhood where we have to learn from our elders.

 

[Kumar]

Why do you think instincts are only beneficial? An instinct to distrust all strangers would be better replaced by learning which strangers to trust and which not to trust. The instinct to flee from a fire would be bad for a fireman. he instinct of a fish to snap at anything that moves is used humans to catch them, and so on.

Every coin has two sides and it can be described in many type--still true. We can't say children instincts are harmful in nett. We can't say a person either with skeptic or beliver instinct is harmful in nett. On looking up on the instinct of a child, it appears that he is programmed to doubt(skeptic) except to his mother or just go opposite due to which he learn rights. But suppose, if we never allow a child to use his instinct, will he not be handicapped in taking his own decision. He then can never be a self made person but will be manmade. An picture "3 idiots" is best example of not going by instincs & going by learning. A student of higher class was given a speech to be spoken in a programme. But other student who was willing to tell value of self & value of just remembering, changed few words in speech. Whole speach become so radiculas & odd. Still that person remenbered as it is & not bothered to understand its meaning. Then after he spoken the speech, he got lot of punishment. It is here but in hindi;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKia0LdQx1w

Our intelligence is a far better tool than instincts inherited from species that did not have the brain analyse a situation. It is the reason that we have achieved all we have today: We can adapt to new circumstances in a way that could never have been achieved with instincts. The cost is a lengthy childhood where we have to learn from our elders.

Yes, two examples of Japan & other nature's imbalances. Nature usually give good & right, we just imbalance it due to our learning or intelligence. Canculate the real, enjoyable & healthful growths, not just growths--healthful & unhealthful?? Child can always be in better health because he live long then other elders.

 

[jimbob]

Maybe we should discuss this else where. the expression of traits of fear of heigths does not start until around the age of walking, as we discussded in the past.
Infants do not show a response to visual cliffs.

What age are are you defining as "infant"?

I thought that babies who crawled often showed a response to visual cliffs, a quick google seems to support this:


http://jerlab.psych.sc.edu/pdf/cd1980.pdf

Mind you I am relying mostly on remembered chats about this with psychology undergraduates when I was at university, so a long time ago and not first hand, and there might have been confounding factors in the experimental setup.

 

[Kumar]

INNATE IMMUNITY

Innate, or nonspecific, immunity is the defense system with which you were born. It protects you against all antigens. Innate immunity involves barriers that keep harmful materials from entering your body. These barriers form the first line of defense in the immune response. Examples of innate immunity include:

•Cough reflex
•Enzymes in tears and skin oils
•Mucus, which traps bacteria and small particles
•Skin
•Stomach acid
Innate immunity also comes in a protein chemical form, called innate humoral immunity. Examples include the body's complement system and substances called interferon and interleukin-1 (which causes fever).

If an antigen gets past these barriers, it is attacked and destroyed by other parts of the immune system.

ACQUIRED IMMUNITY

Acquired immunity is immunity that develops with exposure to various antigens. Your immune system builds a defense that is specific to that antigen.

PASSIVE IMMUNITY

Passive immunity is due to antibodies that are produced in a body other than your own. Infants have passive immunity because they are born with antibodies that are transferred through the placenta from their mother. These antibodies disappear between 6 and 12 months of age.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000821.htm

It will be more productive to relate Instinct with Immune response.

"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

Does above suggest that innate immunity is linked to Instincts & other to Learned behaviour? If so, what we are losing or gaining to gaining or losing instincts in favour of learned behaviour?

 

[PixyMisa]

No.

 

[Dancing David]

It might be a good idea to start another thread.

A lot of instincts develop along with cognition.

Infants don't have the cognition to recognize what a cliff would imply.

To assume all instincts are present when one is born is absurd. Like anything else in the body, there is no reason to assume a lot of wouldn't take time to develop.

Human males tend to have "adam's apples". Babies generally do not. I guess that means a baby can never be a human male, by your logic.
A lot of brain functionality could be the same way. Why would anyone think otherwise?!

To assume all instincts must be universal, and without exception, is also absurd. Quadruped are animals with four legs, and dogs are quadrupeds. If a dog is born with only two legs, does that mean it is not really a dog, or that dogs are not really quadrupeds?

I won't argue here, so...

Universal within most members of a species. The devlopmentment of the adams apple is due to testosterone levels I believe, and a reduction to absurdium through over generalization is not very beneficial.

So for an instinct to be considered there should be a displayed behavioral trait by most members of a species, in response to a given situation or stimulus.

But maybe somewhere else ?