Evolution and Creation an Honest Question

Then please explain your understanding of things.
Tell ya what, Bunkie. Ask a non-rhetorical question having to do with a comment I've made related to, say, evolution, or physics, and let's see how I do. Do I purport to be an expert, no, but I get by just fine. And I'm enthralled when someone actually points me to a new idea. TalkOrigins is not going to do so.
 
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Hey I'm personally a christian who believes in evolution. One question I've often heard though I don't know a good answer for. Simply put a lot of creationists say that there is no known examples of a beneficial mutation. Can any one give me an example? I"m not saying it proves or disproves any thing but its a good question.

Even if there was none good example of a beneficial mutation happening somewhere (and there are some, as this thread probably has provided already), there´s the point that mutations are simply a mechanism that generates genetic differences. It´s not intrinsically evil or something that somehow will avoid (or would have avoided) all the possible extant unharmful or beneficial alelles known to exist.

Then you take two mildly distantly related species, such as lions and tigers. They have genetic differences, and these are perfectly capable of having arised as mutations.

Or better, genetic diferences between human populations, since they must admit that somehow everybody alive today is a descendent from nearly 8 people of near 3000 years ago. And simply there are no enough loci to all the human alleles to be contained in only 8 people (and also should the "meetings" between these 8 people be taken in consideration).

They usually say canned lines about "genetic potential", but what I just said is that is impossible to all the genetic potential necessary to all the human diversity to be contained in about 8 people.
 
On the issue of "a mosquito is a mosquito is a mosquito," I'm surprised no one pointed this out to Hammy earlier...

The system of taxonomy- that is, the organization of species- is indeed arbitrary to a certain extent. After all, the main reason for the system is to make it easier to recognize a species using something that resembles a flowchart.

However, the differentiation between species is NOT arbitrary. The definition of a difference in species is that two groups of organisms are seperate species if they cannot cross-reproduce to produce fertile offspring.

So, if the mosquitos that come from underground and the mosquitos that come from the rest of London couldn't reproduce to form fertile offspring, they're different species.

"A mosquito is a mosquito" is an extremely lazy and unscientific way to see things. While I have no problem with people who aren't interested in science, I have a problem with those who question science without any conception of what it has accomplished. Obviously one can dismiss evolution if one paints the world with such broad strokes.
 
the differentiation between species is NOT arbitrary.
Sorry, but like it or not, it is rather arbitrary. We've about beat this thing to death around here, noting (among other things) that the definition you provided (the "biological species concept") is only one of several definitions, each of which is arbitrary in its own way. Sucks, don't it? Biology is like that. Fuzzy.
 
this is not quite a definition, but a criterion. There are more criteria, but these are not arbitrary, or not totally arbitrary. I´d say that the arbitraryness has more to do with the distinction between close related groups being somewhat blurred, then for practical reasons you got to draw a line eventually.

Higher taxa is a bit more arbitrary, I guess... however... still not totally, and the arbitraryness imposed by classic linlean system tend to collapse as taxonomists make efforts to make accurate classifications, respecting the diversity rather than pre-established taxonomic groups.

Linne started with something like Kingdom, phylum, class, family, genus, and species.

Nowadays not only there are more of these than Linne first proposed, but there are more categories, such as infraorder, suborder, infraclass, subclass, superfamily, subfamily, infratribe, tribe, subtribe, subgenus, subspecies.

And sometimes more... ...some people think that should be more gradation between phyla too, or even abandon using this rank (and some people are in favor of abandoning rankings in general).

Then the whole "a mosquito changes but is still a mosquito" argument conveniently ignores that is possible to walk from mosquito to "inframosquitos", then to "subflies", flies, "infraflies", etc, all the way to insects or higher taxa, and then you can descend again to another species.

This may be not so easy to visualize with insects, but I think that is easier with animals related to dogs, when everybody has in mind (and hopefully accepts) that dog breeds are modified descendants of wolves, and the nature of this modification does not differ from the nature of changes between wolves and foxes, and etc.
 
Nothing can gain entropy! It's a physical law! Oh snap! They just proved it with science.

I use this same excuse for not cleaning my house. It's impossible to bring order from disorder!

and making ice -- impossible. You can't organize all those disorderly liquid water molecules into a crystalline structure.
 
Tell ya what, Bunkie. Ask a non-rhetorical question having to do with a comment I've made related to, say, evolution, or physics, and let's see how I do. Do I purport to be an expert, no, but I get by just fine. And I'm enthralled when someone actually points me to a new idea. TalkOrigins is not going to do so.
Common descent?
Speciation?
 
Tell ya what, Bunkie. Ask a non-rhetorical question having to do with a comment I've made related to, say, evolution, or physics, and let's see how I do. Do I purport to be an expert, no, but I get by just fine. And I'm enthralled when someone actually points me to a new idea. TalkOrigins is not going to do so.
Common descent?
Speciation?
Genetic science?
 
Right. Or perhaps one of you would like to do a memory dump to screen; I'll take a look in my spare time to see if there is anything there new and interesting.

Ask a question concerning "Common descent? Speciation? Genetic science?"; I'll try to answer. I'm long past writing purposeless essays for grading by teachers of questionable pedigree. :)
 
Right. Or perhaps one of you would like to do a memory dump to screen; I'll take a look in my spare time to see if there is anything there new and interesting.

Ask a question concerning "Common descent? Speciation? Genetic science?"; I'll try to answer. I'm long past writing purposeless essays for grading by teachers of questionable pedigree. :)
You can answer "yes" or "no." I was trying to make it easy on you.

1) Do all known organisms share a common ancestor?
2) Do new species develop from older species?

and while I'm at it:

3) What is your definition of species?

p(hammy answer | substantive questions) = 0
 
You can answer "yes" or "no." I was trying to make it easy on you.
Er, yeah. You are a fibber.

1) Do all known organisms share a common ancestor?
Per neo-Darwinism, of course. How are the studies on how many abiogenesis events could be recognized coming along, or are all predicated on the belief only one viable one occured, and all life is ancestral to that one? A reasonable current interpretation of known data suggests at least 3 lineages.

3) What is your definition of species?
At what level of complexity? Virus? Plant? Mammal?

2) Do new species develop from older species?
Per neo-Darwinism, that is a 100% certainty. If your certainty is not 100%, why not? An objective idealist may hold the position that neo-Darwinism is, say 99% correct, yet have no logical inconsistency vis-a-vis the unknown 1%.
 
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Er, yeah. You are a fibber.


Per neo-Darwinism, of course. How are the studies on how many abiogenesis events could be recognized coming along, or are all predicated on the belief only one viable one occured, and all life is ancestral to that one? A reasonable current interpretation of known data suggests at least 3 lineages.


At what level of complexity? Virus? Plant? Mammal?


Per neo-Darwinism, that is a 100% certainty. If your certainty is not 100%, why not? An objective idealist may hold the position that neo-Darwinism is, say 99% correct, yet have no logical inconsistency vis-a-vis the unknown 1%.
DANCY, HAMMY! DANCE!
:dc_biggrin: :dc_sorry: :dc_tongue: :dc_sad: :dc_hmm:
 
Hammy can't dance. I know 100% for a fact that Hammy most certainly IS 1% unsure of what dancing is, and therefore it does not exist.
 
Blather, bloviate, bitch, and whine, but I'll just point out that no questions with any merit, or interest, have been asked.

Here. I'll try one. Is the chart of elements random, or pre-destined?

And in a few hundred years when a similar chart of our terran genetics is prepared, how will you answer the same question about it?
 
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What do you mean? The chart of elements is added to as we discover elements. We can't predetermine stuff we haven't discovered yet. We admittedly are NOT psychics.

The same with genetics. We add to our knowledge base as stuff is discovered.

The same with evolution. We add onto what we've discovered all the time.

The great part is that we can test and change and update. It's not some horrible unalterable supposedly predertimed bunch of hogwash that is stuck in some old age mess.

Take the bible. Any attempts to update it with new knowledge are met with howls of the apocalypse.
 
What do you mean? The chart of elements is added to as we discover elements. We can't predetermine stuff we haven't discovered yet. We admittedly are NOT psychics.
For a moment I read psychics as physics and thought you were actually making a point. My mistake.

The point being, perhaps neo-D, when we finally figure it out as we have the table of elements, terran genetics could actually turn out to be 'just physics'.

If you actually understood what I said, that is.


Take the bible. Any attempts to update it with new knowledge are met with howls of the apocalypse.
No thanks, I read enough fictional just-so-stories posing as fact here. :)
 
What do you mean? The chart of elements is added to as we discover elements. We can't predetermine stuff we haven't discovered yet. We admittedly are NOT psychics.

The same with genetics. We add to our knowledge base as stuff is discovered.

The same with evolution. We add onto what we've discovered all the time.

The great part is that we can test and change and update. It's not some horrible unalterable supposedly predertimed bunch of hogwash that is stuck in some old age mess.

Take the bible. Any attempts to update it with new knowledge are met with howls of the apocalypse.
You're playing his game, Eos. The rules go something like this:
1. Hammy ignores direct questions.
2. Hammy asks a pointless pseudointellectual question about something he doesn't understand.
3. Hammy :dc_biggrin: :dc_biggrin: :dc_biggrin: shifts his position all over the place.
4. If someone asks a direct question, GOTO 1.
 
And just to show I wouldn't ask of others what I can't do myself:
1) Do all known organisms share a common ancestor?
Yes.
2) Do new species develop from older species?
Yes.
3) What is your definition of species?
For sexually reproducing species, organisms capable of interbreeding. For non-sexually reproducing species, it's just a matter of opinion where you draw the line.

When you're intellectually honest, it's not hard to answer direct questions.
 
Do you understand what you read? YES or NO???? ;)

Anyway, you get an A in your "Introduction to neo-Darwinism 090" course. Direct questions are often answered by regurgitating pap. Intellectual honesty in most courses just gets one in trouble.

1. Per neo-Darwinism, of course. How are the studies on how many abiogenesis events could be recognized coming along, or are all predicated on the belief only one viable one occured, and all life is ancestral to that one? A reasonable current interpretation of known data suggests at least 3 lineages.


3. At what level of complexity? Virus? Plant? Mammal?


2. Per neo-Darwinism, that is a 100% certainty. If your certainty is not 100%, why not? An objective idealist may hold the position that neo-Darwinism is, say 99% correct, yet have no logical inconsistency vis-a-vis the unknown 1%.


No interest in an actual response to my question, I see. Do you even understand what I asked?

And for extra credit what is your considered opinion on the common ancestry of Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes, & Viruses.
 
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