Evolution and Creation an Honest Question

[UrsulaV]

At the cellular level we share 25% of the same genes as a banana!

Regrettably, all attempts at a human-banana hybrid have so far foundered due to lack of funding and an unfriendly administration. But some day, Man-ana may yet be born!

...or, uh, bloom. Or whatever.

 

[sphenisc]

Regrettably, all attempts at a human-banana hybrid have so far foundered due to lack of funding and an unfriendly administration. But some day, Man-ana may yet be born!

...or, uh, bloom. Or whatever.

You can't fool me...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,,1083020,00.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Regrettably, all attempts at a human-banana hybrid have so far foundered due to lack of funding and an unfriendly administration. But some day, Man-ana may yet be born!

...or, uh, bloom. Or whatever.

Well, bananas were one of the first hybrids or GMFs as they are referred to today that humans created via genetic engineering 8,000 years ago. So we have some experience here.

But then, Lack of Sex Life Threatens Banana Crops, so I'm not sure how many volunteers you'd get.

 

[Meffy]

But some day, Man-ana may yet be born!

Could be. But conventional wisdom has it that "mañana never arrives."

 

[TjW]

Regrettably, all attempts at a human-banana hybrid have so far foundered due to lack of funding and an unfriendly administration. But some day, Man-ana may yet be born!

...or, uh, bloom. Or whatever.

I blame this on the banana's personality. He's cold, and he's hard... yet he still has a peel.

 

[David Swidler]

But he's a slippery one. And the ones with any real maturity and taste are jaundiced.

 

[TjW]

But he's a slippery one. And the ones with any real maturity and taste are jaundiced.

You might as well come right out and say it, David. They're yellow.

 

[epepke]

Now, the many experiments with fruit flies (Drosphilia) were not made in order to make a better fruit fly. They were made to map the genes (the fruit fly is ideal for this because it is easy and quick to breed and has only four chromosomes).

Plus, the larvae have giant chromosomes in their salivary glands, and you can easily see regions of transcription in action under a microscope.

 

[Scott Haley]

When bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics, is this proven to be a genetic mutation? A man can develop resistance to a drug or a poison over time through repeated exposure, but that's not a genetic change in him.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

When bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics, is this proven to be a genetic mutation? A man can develop resistance to a drug or a poison over time through repeated exposure, but that's not a genetic change in him.

Not only does drug resistance develop de novo (meaning yes it originates as new mutations), the drug resistant genes also find their way into multiple bacterial species and spread around the world sometimes with great speed.

Drug resistant mutations have been genetically demonstrated to arrive de novo. Often the first sign of resistance is the need for an increased concentration or dose of an antibiotic to effectively kill the bacteria. Eventually after additional mutations more complete resistance will develop.

As far as mutations go, there has been some very careful mapping of the genetic changes the H5N1 bird flu has been undergoing. It only needs a couple more nucleic acid substitutions and it will begin to spread from person to person. Mutations are used to map its spread.

We also use mutations to identify the source of various outbreaks. If several patients close to each other come down with the same infection, you can analyze the DNA (or RNA as is the case with some viruses) and determine if they were infected from the same source, an unrelated source, or sometimes detect the infection went from one to the next to the next and so on. We don't do these kinds of tests on a regular basis but they are done in some outbreak investigations and epidemiology studies.

 

[steenkh]

A man can develop resistance to a drug or a poison over time through repeated exposure, but that's not a genetic change in him.

Not as far as I know. If you drink arsenic-laced water for a long time, you will not develop resistance. You get it, and eventually die. You cannot condition your body to poisons.

 

[delphi_ote]

When bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics, is this proven to be a genetic mutation? A man can develop resistance to a drug or a poison over time through repeated exposure, but that's not a genetic change in him.

Another point on this. It's one human drinking the poison, and the human won't pass on its immunity to its children. The bacteria develop the resistance over hundreds of generations and all of their offspring have the immunity. It is heritable.

Can you see why these things are different? Even if you don't understand genomics and can't look at the genes involved, one is evolution and the other is not.

 

[sphenisc]

Not as far as I know. If you drink arsenic-laced water for a long time, you will not develop resistance. You get it, and eventually die. You cannot condition your body to poisons.

That's going to annoy me now. I think I remember reading a short story in which a number of people are murdered at a meal. The murderer mixed some poison into a shared dish, but had previously built up an immunity to it over many years. So the others were killed but he wasn't. Sherlock Holmes story maybe?

Can anyone help?

Cheers

 

[delphi_ote]

Sherlock Holmes story maybe?

I read the collected works, but that story doesn't sound familiar.

 

[Kaarjuus]

I think I remember reading a short story in which a number of people are murdered at a meal. The murderer mixed some poison into a shared dish, but had previously built up an immunity to it over many years. So the others were killed but he wasn't.

This aspect has appeared in many stories, for me starting from Count Monte-Cristo. One detective story that comes to mind is from Dorothy L. Sayers, I think it was called Strong Poison.

One can condition one's body to poisons. One very good example is alcohol. When I started drinking alcohol, it took 3 beers for me to be completely plastered. Nowadays, 3 beers is just enough to give a small pleasant buzz.

 

[Hellbound]

Well, building up immunity depends on the poison involved.

One can build up immunity levels to many organic poisons (rattlesnake venom, for example). However, heavy metals such as mercury or arsenic, stay in the body and are not easily removed. These you can't develop an immunity to, and taking small doses over time just poisons you slower.

 

[Pup]

A man can develop resistance to a drug or a poison over time through repeated exposure, but that's not a genetic change in him.

Not as far as I know. If you drink arsenic-laced water for a long time, you will not develop resistance. You get it, and eventually die. You cannot condition your body to poisons.

Drug tolerance has been pretty thoroughly studied, from the viewpoint of addiction, therapeutic uses, and exposure to poisons. And that includes tolerance to arsenic. For example, the first hit on google science for arsenic tolerance:

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/2/302

Recent work shows that long-term exposure to low levels of arsenite induces malignant transformation in a rat liver epithelial cell line. Importantly, these chronic arsenic-exposed (CAsE) cells also develop self-tolerance to acute arsenic exposure. Tolerance is accompanied by reduced cellular arsenic accumulation, suggesting a mechanistic basis for reduced arsenic sensitivity.

I agree with others though that this is not the same as a genetic resistance that can be passed on to offspring.

 

[Hellbound]

Nice info, Pup, I didn't know you could develop arsenic resistence (I wouldn't call that immunity, though, and it appears it still causes some problems).

 

[drkitten]

This aspect has appeared in many stories, for me starting from Count Monte-Cristo. One detective story that comes to mind is from Dorothy L. Sayers, I think it was called Strong Poison.

Strong Poision specifically used arsenic, but the theme (as you suggest) has been used over and over again. I'm rather fond of the scene from the novel and movie The Princess Bride -"There was poision in both cups. I've spent the past several years building up an immunity to iocane powder."

The earliest version of the story of which I'm aware is that of Mithridates, an early king in the Middle East who "sought to harden himself against poisoning by taking increasing sub-lethal doses of the poisons he knew of until he was able to tolerate lethal doses."

There was a king reigned in the East:
There, when kings will sit to feast,
They get their fill before they think
With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
He gathered all that springs to birth
From the many-venomed earth;
First a little, thence to more,
He sampled all her killing store;
And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
Sate the king when healths went round.
They put arsenic in his meat
And stared aghast to watch him eat;
They poured strychnine in his cup
And shook to see him drink it up:
They shook, they stared as white’s their shirt:
Them it was their poison hurt.
—I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old.

(by A. E. Houseman)

 

[Dymanic]

Probably worth noting that the distinction "poisonous" isn't all that distinct; what may be toxic to one person may be relatively harmless to another -- and, just about anything can be toxic in sufficient doses.

Also worth noting that today is about the closest thing we atheists have to a holy day; it's the 53rd anniversary of Watson and Crick's first publication of Molecular structure of Nucleic Acids: A Structure for Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid in the journal Nature.