evaluating biases

[Piscivore]

Karen
Nah, only you present the dime store version of Christianity.

True enough. But it has been my experience that this is about as far into their faith that most believers get. And this was my experience as a devout theist and candidate for the ministry, mind, not as an atheist. Indeed, it was this shallowness of faith that was one of the things that led me to question the whole apparatus.

God judges the attitude of the heart. He forgives when we repent, which implies genuine sorrow for the offence.

Do you have any biblical sources for this, or did you decide that this is true because it makes the whole "forgiveness" thing more just in your own mind?

Christianity really isn't the "fairyland" you portray.

*snort*

You're right. It's much more a fairlyland than I've portrayed.

Being in the world but not of it, is often rather lonely.

So why waste your life hiding from life and being lonely? It is demonstrably false that the whole persecution complex built in to the faith by the oppressed and paranoid early church applies today. You guys are the majority- so why this "in, not of" poop? Did you give everything you own to the poor? Jesus told you to. Do you have a job? Pay bills?

Sacrificing what small measure of happiness and joy you might glean on this world for an ill-conceived and inconsistant promise of "eternal" happiness later... has it never crossed your mind that the priests are selling you a pig-in-a-poke here? Why don't you ask yourself who benefits from the burden you've imposed on yourself. I'll lay you odds that once you stop automatically assuming you are somehow magically benefiting, you'll discover some interesting things.

Love your neighbour as yourself,

I do this.

pick up your cross and follow me etc.,

See above. Who is actually giving the marching orders? Unless you have a direct line to jesus like 1inCh claims you might want to consider it. Is it possible that that "still, small voice" is just your own wishes and judgement speaking to you? How do you know?

are ideals I could conveniently do without, and yet I know they hold the key to contentment, however infrequently I invoke them. My faith is at once, deeply satisfying and constantly challenging.

This is the "key", so to speak- you think this way because it makes you content. You've convinced yourself yours is the correct belief because beleiveing so makes you feel good. This is no different from the self-delusion in which the New Ager or the Homeopath engages.

It's not the anesthetic you seem to think.

Are you sure? Be honest. How much anxiety does your faith extinguish? How much uncertainty does it smooth over to pray to your god? How often has your god "somtimes answered no?" How often has he acted, directly and unequivocally, in response to one of your prayers?

Why, then do you still do it?

Does it give you a "sense of peace" to "talk with god?"

At any rate, I guess the answer to my original question, is no. The true atheist, it turns out, often wishes there were a God but is bound by his analytical mind to dismiss that hope.

I'd quibble with "often"- make that, at most "sometimes."

You don't need a particularly "analytical mind" to be an atheist- although it certainly helps. You've just got to decide that you don't want to be lied to anymore, and that includes being lied to by yourself. The way you've phrased your statement makes it seem that we'd be theists but for the curse of thinking too much. Not much better an assertion than "tricked by Satan."

There's a difference, you know, between hope and fantasy. Were I shipwrecked and stranded on an uncharted island, "hope" would be building a signal fire and trying to attract attention from search planes. Not trying to thumb down a sea-serpent so as to hitch a ride.

ETA: And, yeah- what H3ll said.

 

[kimiko]

I very much want there to be a God, but have learned through experience that wanting something doesn't make it real or more likely. A simple, even childlike concept, but rather important.

Any prayer that asks for something seems rather like trying to wish something into reality.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Karen
But are you convinced of anything (about which there is some degree of debate) that you wish you weren't?

Yes.

As the esteemed fish-eater pointed out, the finality of death. I am convinced beyond all doubt that my grandfather is lost to me. That I shall not again hear him extol the virtues of licorice jellybeans--they were "black like Papa's heart." That I shall never listen as he recites his favourite poem--

Ladies and gentleman, I'll tell you a fact--
I lost my britches on the railroad track.
Along came a train--choo... choo... choo--
And split my britches right half in two.

That he will never again make me feel like the only person on earth in a room full of anonymous relatives. That he will never again drive a route three times longer than necessary, on the pretense of showing me some park where he and my grandma once had a picnic, but really just to spend more time talking to me. That he will not again lament the fact that I was the only one that loved him, and he me, and we'd have to go out in the garden, eat worms, and die.

It's gone. All of it. And I would give everything I had to have any of it back. The night he died, I prayed the last prayer of my life. I wept in my bed and I begged whatever God might listen to rid me of my "analytical mind," to break down my accursed skepticism, to allow me to believe, to find the comfort that I would see my grandfather again on streets of gold, his eyesight restored, his knees good as new, his head full of red hair once more.

It's been ten years now, and I'm still waiting.

 

[farmermike]

Do you have any biblical sources for this, or did you decide that this is true because it makes the whole "forgiveness" thing more just in your own mind?
*****************
Karen
I could look it up, but to answer one of your later questions, yes, I do work and I have an exam tomorrow, so for anyone who wants to do the legwork, it's something about man judging the outward appearance but God judging the soul/heart. I want to respond to the rest but will have to put it off 'till tomorrow.

I don't know what to say about your daughter. You've certainly sufferred more than me. Somewhere I read that we should respect people for that instead of pitying them.

Nice tribute to your grandfather Marquis. I apologize for forgetting that atheists are human too.

 

[Piscivore]

I don't know what to say about your daughter.

Just a sincere "I'm sorry for your loss" is usually sufficent.

Nice tribute to your grandfather Marquis.

Likewise. Wish I'd know him.

I apologize for forgetting that atheists are human too.

Nice. I hope that should have had a wink icon attached.

 

[farmermike]

Karen
Guess I'm straying from my original thesis here, not that it matters. So, you believe, in the absence of any rock solid proof, that death is final. It seems a logical conclusion to you, based on your interpretation of the available evidence.
So what's the difference between your faith and mine?
My interpretation leads me to believe, that death is merely the end of the beginning. You however, can't call me deluded without simultaneously condemning yourself.
In fact, believing that my creator hardwired me to commune with Him, and having experienced the subjective benefits of this relationship, I naturally think my own position is a cut above your speculations.
Does faith in God soften the blows? I don't know. While I have not experienced the death of a child, I have come to know the abyss that lurks just offshore our mental health. A couple of years ago, my youngest son developed a rare autoimmune reaction to a strep infection, that left him with severe obsessive compulsive disorder, really to the point of insanity. He was 5 at the time and I was really too strung out, at the height of the crisis to pray. Breathing was an accomplishment.
On the one hand, knowing that God allows people to die for their faith(or people of faith to die), wasn't especially comforting. On the other, knowing that He is merciful and not immune to my suffering, was. All I could say with certainty at the time, was that whatever happened, God would work some good from it. Of course I was mostly interested in my present good and good from my perspective.
I should mention, that after a couple of bouts of this, my son is now fine and only mildly obsessive by times. In fact he had a strep infection in November and the expected reaction, never materialized. Knowing what the prognosis generally is, I attribute this happy turn of events, to God's mercy. At the same time, I know, that were we now in the throws of another crisis, I could not therefore say that God didn't care. My point in all this (I think), is how faith, in my experience, is really not a standard issue security blanket.
As for the loneliness... it's a lot like Frodo in the final scenes of The Return of the King. He and his friends are back at the local pub, watching the proceedings, but from a far different perspective than prior to their adventures. In the pub but no longer of it. I don't think he was unhappy, only changed. I guess it's common knowledge that Tolkien was a Christian?

 

[c4ts]

Religion is an opinion. Not having a religion, I can't say I have an opinion on the subject of God.

 

[Piscivore]

So, you believe, in the absence of any rock solid proof, that death is final. It seems a logical conclusion to you, based on your interpretation of the available evidence.

Absence of "rock solid proof", yes, but there is a preponderance of evidence in favour of "my" interpretation. No one has ever offered unequivocal evidence of survival after death, even though billions have lived and died in the millenia we've been recording history. Do you comprehend that number, billions? And yet, at best we have a handful of varying and highly improbable anecdotes of such things. None of the stories and claims of what might exist after death are consistant, verifyable, or repeatable. And may I add they are also highly improbable and inconsistant, as well as mutually contradictory in most cases. Further, most claims of life after death involve postulating souls, "spiritual energies", deities, or cosmic consciences that also suffer from the same dearth of evidence or plausibility. Parsimony suggests that such constructs are neither useful or logical.

So what's the difference between your faith and mine?

Well, yours is a faith, and mine is not. Yet another mouldy strawman is erected. Did you notice the words "logical conclusion" and "available evidence" you bandied about above? Do you know what those words mean?

My interpretation leads me to believe, that death is merely the end of the beginning.

What evidence leads you to believe this?

You however, can't call me deluded without simultaneously condemning yourself.

Why not? Our positions are not equivalent. I know the rules of logic, I'm following them. You are not.

In fact, believing that my creator hardwired me to commune with Him, and having experienced the subjective benefits of this relationship, I naturally think my own position is a cut above your speculations.

What eveidence is there that these "benefits" originate external to yourself? How can you be certain you are not deluding yourself? I have falsifiablility and repeatability to guard against that, what method do you employ?

Does faith in God soften the blows? I don't know. While I have not experienced the death of a child, I have come to know the abyss that lurks just offshore our mental health.

Feh. "Mental health" is itself very subjective. Some "highly disturbed" persons have found success, while others let the smallest of neuroses destroy their lives. The only "abyss" that exists is one we ourselves create.

A couple of years ago, my youngest son developed a rare autoimmune reaction to a strep infection, that left him with severe obsessive compulsive disorder, really to the point of insanity. He was 5 at the time and I was really too strung out, at the height of the crisis to pray. Breathing was an accomplishment.

You didn't pray, but got through it anyway. Sounds like you relied on your own strenght there, not god's. Good for you.

On the one hand, knowing that God allows people to die for their faith(or people of faith to die), wasn't especially comforting. On the other, knowing that He is merciful and not immune to my suffering, was.

So whatever happpened, God's existance was covered, right? You'd already given yourself an "out" that eliminated falsifiability- there was no way for the belief to fail with you. Not to mention that if both these statements are true it renders God completely irrelevant.

As an aside, let me point out that there is a signifigant difference in "people dying for their faith" and "people of faith dying."

All I could say with certainty at the time, was that whatever happened, God would work some good from it.

You don't see how this is interpreting the events to fit your beliefs? Anything the slightest bit "good" would be proof of your faith, and no one's life is an uninterrupted cascade of escalating horror, and even if it did turn out so, you'd credit the experience with granting you deeper wisdom. You've set yourself up a cushion to protect your beliefs. This isn't honesty.

Of course I was mostly interested in my present good and good from my perspective.

Do you feel it should have been otherwise?

I should mention, that after a couple of bouts of this, my son is now fine and only mildly obsessive by times.

Good for him. Most of the most successful people in this world are mildly OCD, I think.

In fact he had a strep infection in November and the expected reaction, never materialized.

Did you take him to the doctor?

Knowing what the prognosis generally is, I attribute this happy turn of events, to God's mercy.

Yeah, screw the medical professionals that presumably cared for him. God did it.

At the same time, I know, that were we now in the throes of another crisis, I could not therefore say that God didn't care.

Why?

My point in all this (I think), is how faith, in my experience, is really not a standard issue security blanket.

Are you sure? Read what you wrote. Son is trouble- don't worry, God will take care of him. If He doesn't it's because he has some other plan. Either way, He cares about my suffering and will "work some good from it".

Sounds G.I. to me.

As for the loneliness... it's a lot like Frodo in the final scenes of The Return of the King. He and his friends are back at the local pub, watching the proceedings, but from a far different perspective than prior to their adventures. In the pub but no longer of it. I don't think he was unhappy, only changed.

That's life in general. Experience in general. There is nothing unique to religion in that. In fact, since the core impetus in religion is to bring one's beliefs in line with the group, there is less of Frodo in it than of Mordor, of Isengard, of Rohan under Wormtongue.

How many Christians do you think have spiritual lives like that of Frodo? Of Jesus? Of any signifigance whatsoever? Are you claiming such a heroic faith? Have you indeed personally sacrificed for your god? Given all you own to the poor? Severed your ties with those of your family that do not profess the divinity of Jesus? When was the last time you were persecuted? Who in your congregation has been arrested for proclaiming thier faith? Who do you know who has been tortured for their beliefs?

The only Christians I know of that have led such a life you probably don't want to associate yourself with.

I guess it's common knowledge that Tolkien was a Christian?

Yes. So is my mom, but I don't hold it against her, either.

 

[farmermike]

Karen
-I said I was too strung out to pray, not that God didn't play a role in keeping me "functional".
-As for the weight of your"evidence" about what happens after death being somehow superior to mine..............?? I guess even the most devout skeptic has to accomodate some uncertainty.
-Yes I took my son to the doctor(s) and I do credit them with doing what they could, which unfortunately wasn't much.
-Knowing that God would work some good from the whole thing, is not to say that I wouldn't have had big problems with being the trials and tribulations poster girl. Again, not all that comforting.
-No, I have not sacrificed in any appreciable way for my faith. I have yet to sell all I possess and set sail for points unknown- not that I don't respect or support those who do.
-I agree, loneliness is not unique to Christians, but there is an element of being on the outside looking in. Let's not argue that popular culture is somehow supportive of moral absolutes.

 

[Piscivore]

Karen
-I said I was too strung out to pray, not that God didn't play a role in keeping me "functional".

If he "plays a role" without prayer, they why pray?

-As for the weight of your"evidence" about what happens after death being somehow superior to mine..............??

I told you what mine is. Where is yours?

I guess even the most devout skeptic has to accomodate some uncertainty.

I claim no certainty at all. Another strawman. It is the theist, it is you, that claims certainty. You claim to know God's motivations, indeed his very existance, without question.

-Yes I took my son to the doctor(s) and I do credit them with doing what they could, which unfortunately wasn't much.

What, exactly, did God do? How did you know it was Him, and not just your son's own immune system?

-Knowing that God would work some good from the whole thing, is not to say that I wouldn't have had big problems with being the trials and tribulations poster girl. Again, not all that comforting.

If you say so. How can you be sure that this god of yours will "work some good" out of the torture of your son, out of your mental anguish? How do you excuse it for that sort of behaviour? At least I'm not required to apologise for the random accidents of a non-sentient universe. But then, you don't care for parsimony- you'd rather build your fairy castles out of wishes and dreams.

-No, I have not sacrificed in any appreciable way for my faith. I have yet to sell all I possess and set sail for points unknown- not that I don't respect or support those who do.

-I agree, loneliness is not unique to Christians, but there is an element of being on the outside looking in.

So, it doesn't sound like you live these "moral absolutes" you pay lip service to below, then. Let me guess- you've got clean water, unspoilt food, a roof over your head, decent shoes, a school for the kids, right? Just like all your neighbours? Like all the millions of Christians in this country that drive their SUV's to church every Sunday? I'm not seeing your profound separation from "the world" here. Do you have heat in the summer? Does the rain beat down on you as you preach to the hordes of heathens crying for your blood on the street corner?

It's a fantasy, a myth. A political situation that evaporated with Constantine. There is no persecution. For the last thousand years it has been the followers of Jesus doing the persecuting.

Christians are in the majority in the West. You are not "apart" from the world, you are the world.

Let's not argue that popular culture is somehow supportive of moral absolutes.

Another fantasy. Where was the moral ambivilence in "Star Wars?" Or any top-grossing movie? On TV talk shows? "Judge Judy?" Comic-book superheroes are almost always painted in moral blacks and whites. So are the jingoistic songs from hyper-patriotic Nashville singers. Why do sports stars thank your god for their victories, as do actors and singers? This paraniod conviction that you are somehow oppressed for your faith is a delusion.

If this is such a morally bankrupt culture, why cannot a politician be elected lest he profess his theism?

 

[farmermike]

Karen
Paranoid, persecution complex? Where did you get this? I simply said it's hard to fully enjoy the office banter, that often ends in the gutter. I'm not bent out of joint about this.
And why can't my faith be just as genuine as any missionary's? Because I own a car? Later.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

If this is such a morally bankrupt culture, why cannot a politician be elected lest he profess his theism?

Um, because theism is morally bankrupt?

 

[Piscivore]

Karen
Paranoid, persecution complex? Where did you get this? I simply said it's hard to fully enjoy the office banter, that often ends in the gutter. I'm not bent out of joint about this.

Actually, that's not what you said. You said as a Christian you had to be "in the world, not of it," and this was "lonely." Guess what- lots of people, including atheists, will become uncomfortable in certain social situations. This has nothing to do with the fact you are a "Christian" and everything to do with people in close proximity acting in ways that make you uncomfortable.

Do you see what you are doing? You are taking emotional reactions common to all humans and assigning them as characteristics unique to your faith.

The fact is that the Epistles are full of paranoia and persecution, usually identified and collectively applied today under the aegis of the phrase "in the world, not of it." A great many truly paranoid fundies use this phrase to excuse their ravings. You might want to keep that in mind.

My point is that you, as a Christian, are very much a part of the world, and whatever lonely feelings you may be experiencing are unrelated to your religion or faith.

And why can't my faith be just as genuine as any missionary's? Because I own a car? Later.

Yeah, pretty much:

Originally posted by BibleGateway.com
LUKE 12:15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

LUKE 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

MARK 10:21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

MARK 12:41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[j]worth only a fraction of a penny.[k]
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything–all she had to live on.”

Same goes for the happy family, I'm afraid:

Originally posted by BibleGateway.com
LUKE 12:51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, motherinlaw against daughterinlaw and daughterinlaw against motherinlaw.”

LUKE 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

You are the one that brought up "moral absolutes"- why do you not adhere to those? Or did you have some other "moral absolutes" in mind? How do you choose which biblical exhortations are "absolute" and which are not?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You are the one that brought up "moral absolutes"- why do you not adhere to those? Or did you have some other "moral absolutes" in mind? How do you choose which biblical exhortations are "absolute" and which are not?

It's my understanding the ones ( Jesus' teachings ) that you have trouble following, are the one's that must have been intended just for those he was speaking to at the time.
It's one of those context things. What's interesting, is that one man's context is another man's bummer.

 

[Piscivore]

It's my understanding the ones ( Jesus' teachings ) that you have trouble following, are the one's that must have been intended just for those he was speaking to at the time.
It's one of those context things. What's interesting, is that one man's context is another man's bummer.

Heh. I don't have any trouble following (or not following, as the case may be) Jesus' teachings, anymore than I would be troubled by those of Davey Koresh.

You raise an interesting point, though; perhaps the whole "no man can come to the father but by me" was only meant for the Isrealites.

 

[farmermike]

Whoa-Slow Down

Karen
Seems I've got some catching up to do here. I'm guessing all those SUV's aren't really in Elizabeathan England after all?
Man, are we on different wavelengths.
1. If popular culture weren't so morally bankrupt, why would I have to lunge for the remote, every time a commercial interupts a basketball game?
2. Why pray if God acts anyway? Prayer is for my benefit. How can I claim to know someone I never "talk" to?
3. My "evidence" for what happens after death is as non-existant as yours. My conviction, based on the life, death and resurection of Christ, is that death is not synonymous with annihilation.
I Corinthians 15:43-44,46; "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, itis raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body....The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
Don't mind me and my fairytales...
4. I do think my son's immune system has straightened out. It just doesn't stand to reason, so I say thank-you God.
5. How could God allow my son's suffering? I think God's ultimate purpose for us, is to know him. My son is very gifted academically, athletically and he's pretty cute to boot. I would wink here if I knew how. Perhaps a thorn in his flesh, will prevent him from turning out a pompous ass, who thinks his sole purpose on this earth is to satisy the lusts of his flesh. I really don't know. Maybe he will know God a whole lot better than I do, as a result. He will certainly be sympathetic to others suffering.
6. " Christians don't have all the answers but but they know does."-crusade slogan, possibly a bumper sticker
7. I think the point about giving up all you own and following me, is that if your SUV is the focus of your life, your priotities are screwed up. This natural tendancy is a constant struggle for me although I drive a lowly station wagon.
Same with the family. My first loyalty has to be to God. If this creates tension, as it often does, I should not therefore cease and desist. It's a graphic picture- context like Diogenes said. Based on the total of Jesus's teachings, I think its safe to say that he does not want families sword fighting.
8. Micah6:8 "And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Ergo, I can keep the job. I could sell it all and not profit my soul, one bit, if my motivation was to be seen sacrificing.
9. Strongly disagree with your characterization of the gospels as paranoid etc.
10. Christians are human too. Good and bad/bad and good.
Have a great weekend!

 

[Piscivore]

Re: Whoa-Slow Down

Karen
Seems I've got some catching up to do here. I'm guessing all those SUV's aren't really in Elizabeathan England after all?

My "location" reflects the book I'm currently reading, and that one is actually three books out-of-date. I'm in PHX, AZ.

Man, are we on different wavelengths.

Heh, apparently.

1. If popular culture weren't so morally bankrupt, why would I have to lunge for the remote, every time a commercial interupts a basketball game?

I don't know- why do you?

2. Why pray if God acts anyway? Prayer is for my benefit.

You don't see a pattern here?

How do you determine if an event is god-caused or just a result of natural processes?

How can I claim to know someone I never "talk" to?

Does he ever talk back? If not, how can you claim to "know" if he's even there.

If he does, how do you tell you're not delusional?

3. My "evidence" for what happens after death is as non-existant as yours. My conviction, based on the life, death and resurection of Christ, is that death is not synonymous with annihilation.

I can't prove a negative. I'll never be able to prove that there is not some "life after death." Just as I cannot prove there is not an IPU in the rose garden. But since there is not, and has never been, positive evidence of either, I'm not about to claim that either exists. Theists have no such reservations- they continually assert that they know what lies beyond, as you do.

The life, death, and resurection of Christ is an incoherent and contradictory piece of obvious fiction. Why do you believe that story? Why not the Egyptian story on which it is based? Do you think the Jews of the time were incapable of producing fiction? What gives you the certainty that this Jesus character was real? Or has any influence apart from the actions of his followers.

I Corinthians 15:43-44,46; "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, itis raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body....The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Is there any observable evidence to support this? Any at all?

Don't mind me and my fairytales...

I'm a fiction writer, I'm all about fairytales. I just don't believe everything I read.

4. I do think my son's immune system has straightened out. It just doesn't stand to reason, so I say thank-you God.

And your years of medical education gives you the basis to declare that his recovery "just doesn't stand to reason," right? Your ignorance = God's influence, is that how it works?

5. How could God allow my son's suffering? I think God's ultimate purpose for us, is to know him.

So why does he hide behind cryptic, archaic texts and human intermediaries?

My son is very gifted academically, athletically and he's pretty cute to boot. I would wink here if I knew how.

Semicolon followed by a right parenthesis.

Perhaps a thorn in his flesh, will prevent him from turning out a pompous ass, who thinks his sole purpose on this earth is to satisy the lusts of his flesh. I really don't know. Maybe he will know God a whole lot better than I do, as a result. He will certainly be sympathetic to others suffering.

There's no guarantee of that, either. It's going to have a whole lot more to do with the values you instill in him than an isolated childhood illness. My son had heart surgery when he was two, but that doesn't mean I can safely ignore him and trust he will be compassionate as a result.

Sometimes suffering can make a person feel entitled to "satisfy the lusts of [the]flesh" in recompense.

6. " Christians don't have all the answers but but they know does."-crusade slogan, possibly a bumper sticker

Who? I ask again, does god speak to you, or do you have to deal with one of his intermediaries? How are you sure the intermediary isn't just making stuff up?

Or do you have to find your own answers in the bible? How is that not just making a decision for yourself?

7. I think the point about giving up all you own and following me, is that if your SUV is the focus of your life, your priotities are screwed up.

That's not what the bible says. It's pretty clear.

This natural tendancy is a constant struggle for me although I drive a lowly station wagon.
Same with the family. My first loyalty has to be to God. If this creates tension, as it often does, I should not therefore cease and desist. It's a graphic picture- context like Diogenes said. Based on the total of Jesus's teachings, I think its safe to say that he does not want families sword fighting.

That's also not what the bible says. So, how do you decide which parts to follow without question, which parts to ignore due to "context," and which parts you may interpret as you like?

8. Micah6:8 "And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Ergo, I can keep the job. I could sell it all and not profit my soul, one bit, if my motivation was to be seen sacrificing.

Wow, that's not a stretch, is it? Where in there does it say to keep the job- or are you asserting this is the extent of what god requires of you? If that is what you are saying, why does this contradict everything your "saviour" commanded you do?

I didn't say you should be "seen sacrificing." Indeed, that would contradict another of Jesus' commands. Sell your stuff and donate it anonymously. That satisfies both Jesus' orders and Micah.

9. Strongly disagree with your characterization of the gospels as paranoid etc.

I said the Epistles were paranoid, not the Gospels. You do know the difference, right?

10. Christians are human too. Good and bad/bad and good.
Have a great weekend!

Likewise.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Whoa-Slow Down

Karen

................ It's a graphic picture- context like Diogenes said. Based on the total of Jesus's teachings, I think its safe to say that he does not want families sword fighting.
...............

Whoa! You missed my sarcasm.. ( must be your forgiving nature .. )

Sure it's " safe to say ", if it appears contradictory.. i.e.. He didn't really mean that..

My point about following Jesus' teachings ( or not ) appears to be a selective process depending on what the believer is comfortable with...

 

[farmermike]

Karen
In an effort not to ignore my sons and instill some worthwhile values beyond hurry up and eat, I'll try to be brief. How do I know God is real and how do I know I'm not talking to the ceiling whn I pray?
Because God promises that when we seek him, we will find him. "To him who knocks the door will be opened."
I believe that people, like birds etc., have certain core instincts, one of which, is an awareness of a "higher power". Not that it can't be easily ignored or disputed. I think, that as you point out, the fact that the large majority of human beings admit to a belief in "God", is proof of this.
So it follows, that if there is a God and he made me, communicating with him should come naturally- no intermediaries. This is deep to deep (soul to soul), "living water," no voices in my experience.
Now, about picking and choosing. I hope I don't. It's not often that fundamentalists are accused of not being fundamental enough. There are lots of things in the Bible that make "selling" it hard. This is a big indicator to me of its' source. If people had invented this stuff, it would be all sugar and spice and nothing about our responsibility in the equation. As I have said before I think God is less interested in P.R., than the facts of the matter.
The Epistles don't read like fairytales to me. They read like people who saw something with their own eyes and ears, that they were intent on sharing, at pain of death.

So it's Elizabeathan Phoenix. Nice.

Diogenes- Hello again. I was just teasing.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Karen
Now, about picking and choosing. I hope I don't.

You either do or you don't.. Where do you get your instructions for being a Christians?
The implication would be the so called instructions from Christ that are recorded in the Bible.. How do you decide which instructions are for you? Just the easy ones? Love your neighbor? Judge not, lest you be judged?

Surely he didn't mean for you to give all your stuff to the poor.. That was for someone else...