European BDS

Right, the Uighers. It takes quite a pair of blinders to get hysterical over 17 Uighers while 2,000 people are held in your own country who haven't ever even attended a terrorist training camp. Why don't you bump a Gitmo thread if you want to talk about Gitmo in general? Maybe it's because the facts don't support you?
This is ridiculous. Darth started this thread, about the Uighurs. I responded to him about that. BTW, Darth, I'm looking forward to a reply to post #99. I mentioned Gitmo in general in passing. You're the one who wants to make (another) discussion out of it.


And the population of Dutch detainees continues to grow! Meanwhile, the population of Gitmo is continually decreasing, down 70% from it's high water mark. Worry about your own business first.
A complete non sequitur. The issue in this discussion is that the US has a number of Gitmo detainees - in particular those 17 Uighurs - whom they want to release because there is no (or insufficient) evidence they've committed crimes or engaged in combat against the US. These detainees can't be sent back to their home country because they're likely to be prosecuted/maltreated there, and the US doesn't feel like giving them asylum themselves. So, the US asks European countries to help out.

So what's the point of your attitude? Isn't it logical that European members react in this thread?

What's there to know? The Dutch are holding 2,000 people indefinitely without charges, and they aren't even wartime enemies! Scaled up for population differences this would be like the US holding 35,000.

If you want to discuss that Amnesty report:

START YOUR OWN THREAD!

BDS blinders.
********. As stated before, I'm open to criticism on every country's policy, including my own, and when it comes to human rights, I believe Amnesty's word over that of any government's, including mine.

However, I'm not willing to play your game. You try to argue that, because there's something wrong in my country, I'm not entitled to criticize the US policy with Gitmo. That's a despicable attitude. You're trying to bring in an unrelated issue that should be dealt with separately. If you have a problem with foreigners criticizing the US over Gitmo, tough luck - you can't silence them.

And with all your sophistry about the alleged legality of Gitmo - it suffices to quote Irene Khan, Secretary General of Amnesty:
Guantanamo has become the gulag our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law.
I'm sure you can find the various reports by Amnesty about Gitmo, arbitary detention, "extrajudicial rendition", etc., online.

So, shall we get back to the Uighurs?
 
While literally true that is frankly ridiculous, gtc.

Guantamo Bay is not American soil; it is in Cuba and is leased to the US.

There is nothing ridiculous about pointing out that you don't have your facts straight.
 
I am aware it is Cuba and that it is not american soil, gtc. The problem is that cuban writ does not run there: that is why I think the point ridiculous and why the US court did not accept that as an argument.

The main argument is this: they are established as refugees. Refugees can claim asylum. They are already asylum seekers if they are in the territory of the state from which they claim asylum. In practice these people are in american territory, by virtue of the fact that americans set the rules within that territory. If you prefer to maintain the fiction that this is in fact Cuba, I am happy to concede that, though I think it specious. So let me give you that.

So they are in Cuba but they are in the hands of the Americans. What now? Well they are refugees by virtue of article 1 of the 1951 convention, which defines a refugee as:

A person who is outside his or her country of nationality or habitual residence; has a well-founded fear of persecution because of his or her race. religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion; and is unable or unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country, or to return there fore fear of persecution

and so they can ask the Americans for inclusion in the refugee programme: and the response to that will be determined by us immigration law and international agreements on the rights of refugees.

Generally, refugees must be outside their homelands to be eligible for the U.S. refugee program, though the U.S. processes application from refugees in their home countries in a few places. (currently, the U.S. has such programs in Cuba, Vietnam, and the former Soviet Union).

They are indeed "outside their homeland". It is agreed that they cannot return to their own state because of a "well-founded fear of persecution". The US has quotas for refugees outside the USA and has stated its priorities thus:

the U.S. has stated its preferred order of solutions are: (1) repatriation of refugees to their country of origin, (2) integration of the refugees into their country of asylum and, last, (3) resettlement to a third country, such as the U.S., when the first two options are not viable.

Repatriation is obviously not an option given they are refugees for the reasons stated.

They are not in cuba because they sought asylum there so it is not their country of asylum. Since the USA has special arrangements for cuban nationals such that they can apply for status as refugees from within cuba, it is clear that the USA does not consider Cuba to be a safe haven for anyone, much less for refugees from third countries: it follows that the USA cannot meet their obligations, international and domestic, by releasing these people to cuba, unless that is what the refugees want.

The third option appears to be the only viable one: and there is no reason why it should not be the USA rather than any other country. Even if you argue they are not on american territory they are under american control and quite obviously so, since the legal battles have been conducted in the american courts.

There are specified conditions which allow the USA to refuse admission even where refugee status is admitted:

The following is a list of grounds for which a refugee may not be admitted to the U.S.:

A person who is determined to have a communicable disease of public health significance
A person who is determined to have certain serious physical or mental disorders
A person who is determined to be a drug abuser or addict
A former citizen of the U.S. who renounced citizenship for tax purposes
A person who has committed a crime of moral turpitude
A person who has violated laws pertaining to controlled substances
A person who has been convicted of two or more criminal offenses
A person who has committed prostitution within the past ten years
An individual who has committed serious crimes and has been granted immunity from prosecution
A person who is intending to practice polygamy in the United States
A person who is attempting to enter the U.S. in violation of U.S. immigration laws, or assists another person to do so
A person who has been involved in international child abduction
A person who is intending to enter the U.S. to conduct illegal activities
A person whose admission to the U.S. would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences to the U.S.
A person who is or has been a member of the communist or any other totalitarian party
A person who has engaged in any way in the persecution of others on the basis of race, nationality, religion, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group
Many, but not all, of the grounds listed above may be waived by the Secretary of Homeland Security upon application by the refugee applicant.

These people do not fall into any of those categories so far as I can see.

I do not accept that these people are not in American territory, as I have said: but I do accept that the situation has been muddied (I think deliberately) by the US government (not with any great success because their claim has been denied by their own courts in a slightly different but relevant context): much of the way the us immigration law has dealt with refugees has been determined by the fact that the US is seldom the first stop for an aylum seeker as a matter of geographical accident: but in this case they are the natural first stop and therefore the us has obligations under the convention. Of course they may ask a third country to take them: but that country is under no obligation to do so and the US is under obligation not to expel them without due process.
 
even the Netherlands hold people in detention facilities indefinitely when they have no place to put them, and they weren't even terrorists. Yet nobody starts threads here about that! How else can it be explained other than BDS?
It is moronic to morally or legally equate Dutch immigration detention facilities with Guantanamo.

The people in those Dutch facilities came to the Netherlands illegally, usually on their own accord, sometimes forced by human traffickers. But they were never brought here by the Dutch government.

The people in Guantanamo were forcibly taken there by the US government from other countries.

The difference is about taking responsibility for your own actions, as opposed to taking responsibility for another's actions.
 

That's a pretty fine mess you've gotten yourself into there, America. Way to play politics with people's lives!

ETA: I'm struck, though hardly surprised, by the continued ignorance of Republican congressmen on this issue. Comapre the judge's statement that ""We do know there is insufficient evidence to classify them as enemy combatants -- enemies, that is, of the United States", with "The remaining detainees in Guantanamo Bay are the worst-of-the-worst offenders. We cannot allow known terrorists to roam the streets of the U.S."

The judge says, quite definitively, that these people are not terrorists. And yet Lamar Smith comes right out and claims that they are! Unbelievable.

It seems you're in a rather complicated legal pickle. So what's next? Doesn't this all just highlight that the previous administration never had a plan of action for these detainees, and really did imagine holding them in legal limbo forever?
 
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The judge says, quite definitively, that these people are not terrorists. And yet Lamar Smith comes right out and claims that they are! Unbelievable.
You are confusing things here. The US maintains that they are not enemy combatants per the AUMF, which requires that they "planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons". This does not mean that they are not terrorists, just that they are not people who were involved in the 9/11 attacks. Nor have they committed crimes against the United States.

We won't send them back to China because they might be tortured there, nor does any other country want them because they are likely terrorists. Nor does US law allow them to settle here.

My guess is that in the end the Obama admin. will "hope" that China isn't lying when they say they won't torture them and send them back to China.
 
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We won't send them back to China because they might be tortured there, nor does any other country want them because they are likely terrorists. Nor does US law allow them to settle here.

Likely terrorists, or known terrorists? Have they been convicted of any terrorism offences?

If not, how can Smith say that they are "known" terrorists with a straight face -- unless, of course, he is using the verb "to know" as per the sentence "We just know they're guilty, but we don't have a scintilla of evidence"?
 
Likely terrorists, or known terrorists? Have they been convicted of any terrorism offences?
At the very least they're Islamic seperatists. All were picked up in Afghanistan of Pakistan. Originally, they were thought to be enemy combatants and detained. It was soon determined that they weren't enemy combatants, but no one would take them and we couldn't send them back from where they came.

No trial was ever conducted to convict someone of being an enemy combatant, in fact it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions to do so.

If not, how can Smith say that they are "known" terrorists with a straight face -- unless, of course, he is using the verb "to know" as per the sentence "We just know they're guilty, but we don't have a scintilla of evidence"?
You don't think it is possible to know things just because a court hasn't determined something? Do you know what you had for breakfast this morning even though a court never concurred?
 
At the very least they're Islamic seperatists.

So? That does not make them "known terrorists".

All were picked up in Afghanistan of Pakistan.


So? That does not make them "known terrorists".

Originally, they were thought to be enemy combatants and detained. It was soon determined that they weren't enemy combatants, but no one would take them and we couldn't send them back from where they came.

Indeed. Rather sticky situation, what? And entirely created by the willingness of the previous administration to ride rough-shod over the norms of international law.

It is now manifestly obvious that there was no thought to this problem before anyone was detained, and perhaps that there has been no thought to how to resolve this mess in the, what, seven years since 2001. Why was how to deal with these people not decided before, or shortly after, they were detained?!

No trial was ever conducted to convict someone of being an enemy combatant, in fact it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions to do so.

Indeed. We all know this.

You don't think it is possible to know things just because a court hasn't determined something?

In all legal and political traditions, particularly the "free" ones our countries pride themselves on (and, indeed, claim to be trying to defend), the answer to that question is most resoundingly "No".

You know that. Don't be obtuse.
 
So? That does not make them "known terrorists".




So? That does not make them "known terrorists".
I said "likely". You do know that China has a problem with Uighur seperatists who are also Islamic extremists, don't you? It's not like Uighurs are free to travel to Pakistan and Afghanistan whenever they wish, China doesn't roll that way. They weren't there on tourist visas.

Indeed. Rather sticky situation, what? And entirely created by the willingness of the previous administration to ride rough-shod over the norms of international law.
What norms of international law would that be?

It is now manifestly obvious that there was no thought to this problem before anyone was detained, and perhaps that there has been no thought to how to resolve this mess in the, what, seven years since 2001. Why was how to deal with these people not decided before, or shortly after, they were detained?!
It was decided what to do with them shortly after they were detained - release them. Problem is there's no place to release them. The countries they were found in don't want them. China wants them but we won't give them to them.

Indeed. We all know this.
So what is this "norm of international law" you were going on about?

In all legal and political traditions, particularly the "free" ones our countries pride themselves on (and, indeed, claim to be trying to defend), the answer to that question is most resoundingly "No".

You know that. Don't be obtuse.
Well then, it should be a simple matter to find such a country with such a proud legal and political tradition to take them, yes?
 
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I said "likely". You do know that China has a problem with Uighur seperatists who are also Islamic extremists, don't you? It's not like Uighurs are free to travel to Pakistan and Afghanistan whenever they wish, China doesn't roll that way. They weren't there on tourist visas.

Provide proof they're criminals or combatants, or accept that they are innocent until proven guilty.

You do believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty, right?

Do you accept that Smith is wrong (and basically lying, given the judges pronouncements) to brand these people "the worst of the worst" and "known terrorists"?

What norms of international law would that be?

Oh, I don't know -- maybe the one that means countries don't just go around picking up random people in foreign countries against whom they have no evidence of either combatant or criminal status, dumping them in a legally-contentious military enclave off-shore and then literally having no plan whatsoever to do with them once they got them there.

See any other countries doing that? It sure seems out of the norm to me.

It was decided what to do with them shortly after they were detained - release them. Problem is there's no place to release them. The countries they were found in don't want them. China wants them but we won't give them to them.

Maybe you should have thought about that before you picked them up, hmm?


Well then, it should be a simple matter to find such a country with such a proud legal and political tradition to take them, yes?

America takes in refugees who are fleeing torture in their homelands, right? And it does believe in innocent until proven guilty, doesn't it?
 

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