Electric Vehicles

[Tippit]

I was mistaken. While Puget Sound Energy does have diversified sources, It's still 35% coal, 31 Natural gas, 23% hydro, and the rest solar, nuc, and the like.

Ok, thanks. That looks more accurate and typical for most grids.

Mind you, you have provided no citations for any of your claims.

EV's are not perfect, but still better than ICE vehicles for pollutants.

This is just based on what I've read, I would have to do some more research to get citations. I think the main problem I have, is 1) I'm an AGW skeptic (denier, whatever you want to call me) 2) I am not convinced that EVs charged from the grid and thus using the 20% renewables offset all the other negatives I listed above, and 3) it appears that unless the Li+ batteries are recycled, the whole thing is net detrimental to the environment, and it doesn't appear that (as of now) they are being recycled to any meaningful degree. Of course, typical EV batteries tend to last 15 years or so, so we may not run into this problem until a few more years down the road.

 

[Pixel42]

I don't believe anthropogenic warming is a material issue. I think it's made up "science", used for political reasons (carbon taxation, population control in the developing world). I think solar is the principal driver of climate on earth. Carbon Dioxide is a building block of nature, not a pollutant, and it gets scrubbed by all flora on planet earth, as well as absorbed by the oceans (at the right temperature, else it is emitted). But that is beyond the scope of this thread.

It is indeed. If you have arguments/evidence to support these views you will of course post them in the appropriate thread, where they can be examined and appropriate responses given.

 

[Nessie]

I have written to my MP, MSP and the local council and housing association about plans for installing charging points in all of the residents carparks in my area. Considering the government wants electric car sales only by 2030 and manufacturers are reacting now to that change, it is worrying that all the responses I got were that there are as yet no plans to install chargers.

Surely the two need to go hand in hand?

 

[Nessie]

Not really. Passenger cars aren't the only vehicles on the road, and not all inter-vehicle collisions are passenger car vs. passenger car. Trucks have always been big for reasons unrelated to safety. And in a collision with a truck, a passenger car is always going to be significantly outweighed.

Furthermore, a collision between two light cars is going to be more dangerous than a collision between two heavier cars, because safety doesn't scale linearly with weight. There's a floor to the weight of a car unrelated to its own safety that will make it dangerous to other cars in a collision. Add in the safety features that make a car safer, and you haven't actually made it that much more dangerous to the cars around it. Again, look at the figures I posted for a Civic: the weight gain is significant, but the safety gains are even bigger.

Plus there are accidents where heavier vehicles can come out worse, like leaving the road and hitting a tree.

 

[The Don]

BBC article which postulates that electric vehicles are about to enter the mainstream:

Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars.

It is certainly what the world's big car makers think.

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

And it isn't just premium brands.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947

My friends who have gone fully EV already are early adopters in many things. Mrs Don and I are very much mid-market. Nevertheless, it's very likely that our next car purchase will be an EV.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I don't believe anthropogenic warming is a material issue. I think it's made up "science", used for political reasons ...

That's a curious non-explanation for why you claimed the toxicity of lithium production shows people are kidding themselves about anthropogenic climate change.

Also, about the 80% non-renewables figure you quoted for power generation, is there any good reason you chose "non-renewables" rather than "fossil fuels"? I get that it makes your number look bigger but it doesn't seem like the relevant category for this discussion.

I don't know what the mix is like in US power generation but, as I write, the UK is making a shade over 40% of its demand from natural gas and 0% from coal. The rest is either non CO2 emitting or carbon neutral.

e.g. There's also almost 17% from nuclear, which it seems you would be classifying as "non-renewable" but in the context of this discussion seems relevant to classify as non-fossil-fuelled. 7.5% is biomass which certainly emits CO2 but is carbon neutral so I don't know how you would choose to classify that.

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/?ref=pynk.io

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Plus there are accidents where heavier vehicles can come out worse, like leaving the road and hitting a tree.

Or by failing to swerve quickly enough to avoid hitting something.

I believe the manufacturers talk about primary and secondary safety features, (where secondary features help you survive an accident but primary ones help you avoid it in the first place). And I think that the comparative agility of a smaller lighter vehicle is considered part of its primary safety just as the mass of a larger vehicle helps its secondary safety (for its occupants at least).

Can't recall where I read this though so no reference - sorry.

 

[Nessie]

Or by failing to swerve quickly enough to avoid hitting something.

I believe the manufacturers talk about primary and secondary safety features, (where secondary features help you survive an accident but primary ones help you avoid it in the first place). And I think that the comparative agility of a smaller lighter vehicle is considered part of its primary safety just as the mass of a larger vehicle helps its secondary safety (for its occupants at least).

Can't recall where I read this though so no reference - sorry.

At least theoretically electric vehicles should be less likely to roll over, especially SUVs, due to a lower centre of gravity. It will be interesting how the "Moose Test" changes. Will EVs find it harder to swerve, but when they do, they are less likely to roll?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

At least theoretically electric vehicles should be less likely to roll over, especially SUVs, due to a lower centre of gravity. It will be interesting how the "Moose Test" changes. Will EVs find it harder to swerve, but when they do, they are less likely to roll?

It's an interesting question; does a floor-mounted battery pack offset the increased weight and the trend for cars to get taller?

 

[The Don]

At least theoretically electric vehicles should be less likely to roll over, especially SUVs, due to a lower centre of gravity. It will be interesting how the "Moose Test" changes. Will EVs find it harder to swerve, but when they do, they are less likely to roll?

My friend who has just taken delivery of a Jaguar I-PACE has repeatedly stated that it's so much more agile than the XF estate it replaced.

 

[Tippit]

That's a curious non-explanation for why you claimed the toxicity of lithium production shows people are kidding themselves about anthropogenic climate change.

I didn't claim that people are kidding themselves about AGW (although I believe they are). I claimed that people who buy EVs thinking that they are net beneficial to the environment, are kidding themselves.

Also, about the 80% non-renewables figure you quoted for power generation, is there any good reason you chose "non-renewables" rather than "fossil fuels"? I get that it makes your number look bigger but it doesn't seem like the relevant category for this discussion.

I don't know what the mix is like in US power generation but, as I write, the UK is making a shade over 40% of its demand from natural gas and 0% from coal. The rest is either non CO2 emitting or carbon neutral.

This is a fair point, worth discussing. I'm not familiar with the emissions profile for all of the different types of fuel sources, but I assume that a lot of naive people are buying EVs with the idea that they are consuming mostly renewable power, when clearly they aren't.

e.g. There's also almost 17% from nuclear, which it seems you would be classifying as "non-renewable" but in the context of this discussion seems relevant to classify as non-fossil-fuelled. 7.5% is biomass which certainly emits CO2 but is carbon neutral so I don't know how you would choose to classify that.

I'm not an expert on nuclear, but it seems like it has its own emissions profile, as well as a specific risk profile that should be considered as well. There is probably a subset of EV buyers who don't like it, whether or not that is a reasonable opinion.

Thanks for the link, that was pretty cool.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Yes, that is what I did. Why doesn't that make sense? (ETA: I noticed 302kW/hour didn't make sense as a unit but thought he just meant average power over an hour was 320kW)

Shalamar has made sense of his numbers though.

If you assume that (Average power used 320kW), it works out at 430 bhp, which means Shalamar would have been doing the equivalent of driving this with his foot to the floor for 30 hours.


Which didn't make sense.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I'm not an expert on nuclear…

May I politely ask what you are an expert on?

As an aside, I avoid threads on global warming, since there’s little to be gained by non-experts opining on the topic. It’s a shame this thread is headed in that direction.

Moderators?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Stupid reality denying conspiracy theories are a hijack and don't belong in this thread.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Agreed. Research isn't some people's strong point, so here's a few ways the batteries from my car are being recycled.

Summary - We know batteries are expensive, it hasn't been disputed in this thread, people don't throw away expensive stuff.

The price of batteries is coming down, but I doubt it will ever get to the point where they are disposable at end of use, let alone life

 

[Shalamar]

Agreed. Research isn't some people's strong point, so here's a few ways the batteries from my car are being recycled.

Summary - We know batteries are expensive, it hasn't been disputed in this thread, people don't throw away expensive stuff.

The price of batteries is coming down, but I doubt it will ever get to the point where they are disposable at end of use, let alone life

While I can believe that the recycle rate for Lithium batteries is low, that would be from Phone and Laptop use.. which people would tend to throw out at end of life. Even an EV Battery at end of life still has use! Just not in a car.

 

[Trebuchet]

We stayed in West Yellowstone (Destination Charger!) but Our favorite part was Lamar Valley. We had a guide for that day for a private photography and wildlife tour.

Thanks! I was wondering if there are any chargers inside the park.

 

[Shalamar]

Thanks! I was wondering if there are any chargers inside the park.

I think there's a destination charger or two inside the park. No fast chargers though.

 

[bruto]

While I can believe that the recycle rate for Lithium batteries is low, that would be from Phone and Laptop use.. which people would tend to throw out at end of life. Even an EV Battery at end of life still has use! Just not in a car.

I think some of these things are likely to be better sorted as time goes by. Demand now isn't so great but even now there is some secondary market for products that have lost some life. Even some decades ago, for example, phone company backup batteries past their prime had a market in off grid setups, and inrural areas batteries and solar panels find a place after they're commercially used up. As this stuffvbecomes more plentiful I expect there will be good lot of demand.

 

[TomB]

I didn't claim that people are kidding themselves about AGW (although I believe they are). I claimed that people who buy EVs thinking that they are net beneficial to the environment, are kidding themselves.



This is a fair point, worth discussing. I'm not familiar with the emissions profile for all of the different types of fuel sources, but I assume that a lot of naive people are buying EVs with the idea that they are consuming mostly renewable power, when clearly they aren't.

Hmmm... First of all, you must remember, that electricity is a power form not a power source. As such, electric vehicles can be powered by any power source that can be converted into electricity. This, of course, can be any of the fossil fuels, nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal, or hydropower.

The effect is that electric vehicles, by being source independent, have the flexibility to be powered by any source of power. So as the grid becomes more carbon-neutral (or otherwise clean) the cars follow the trend.

ICE engines do not have this flexibility and are locked entirely into petroleum (and ethanol) as a fuel source.

So they are correct in the long term, assuming that coal is gradually replaced by non-fossil fuels.

I'm not an expert on nuclear, but it seems like it has its own emissions profile, as well as a specific risk profile that should be considered as well. There is probably a subset of EV buyers who don't like it, whether or not that is a reasonable opinion.

I was briefly a nuclear engineering major (Freshman year), and it's still my favorite form of centralized power generation. In normal operation, its only direct emission should be heat from the cooling towers. The main source of emissions is, I believe from the mining process to get the Uranium fuel.

Obviously it has its problems, such as the consequences of natural disasters (Fukushima) or operator error during ill-conceived experiments (Chernobyl). And the question of waste storage is an issue, though it really should be a solvable problem.

Other sources, such as solar, I like as distributed sources.