Electric Vehicles

[Filippo Lippi]

The UK is taking those decisions. This is a map of charging stations in the UK, if you scroll out, or start scrolled out, you can't see the UK for charging stations. Some places you have to scroll in a long way to see the gaps between the charging stations. There's been a lot of carrot by the UK govt

 

[The Don]

My experience with privatized utilities leads me to believe this is probably not the best way to do this.

I don't see why municipalized charging stations couldn't be a solution as well, especially in locations where the electricity service is not privatized.

I'm sure they could be a solution, I just don't seen the UK or US going for that kind of "market manipulation" in the current, or likely future, political climate.

 

[The Don]

Here's an interesting 2017 paper on the charging infrastructure in Norway.

https://elbil.no/wp-content/uploads...infrastrucure-experiences-in-Norway-paper.pdf

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well that's always been the problem with EVs. They do have disadvantages but every time one of them is brought up we either get straight told (essentially) "No, that's not and you're lying and just trying to come up with reasons you hate EVs" or we get offered some super-complicated solution ("Just unhitch your trailer every time you want to recharge.") that is so insanely impractical if feels like deliberate trolling.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Sure. What you're suggesting is a massive infrastructure project.

I see the grid expanding through multiple paths.

1) Ford has announced its own network of charging stations. Tesla already has one. Rivian has announced plans for one. I’d like to see federal mandates for compatibility, much like there are standards for gas pump nozzles.

2) Businesses will see competitive advantage by installing charging stations. Charging stations are few and far between in E TN, as I suspect they are across wide swaths of rural America. One of the rare ones is two at a local Whole Foods, and it’s enough to encourage us to shop there if we’re in the area, even though with a PHEV it’s less critical.

3) I’d like to see Biden’s Infrastructure Plan include charging stations at all Interstate Service Plazas.

In any case I think the next 5 years will see an explosion in charging options. Let’s hope anyway!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well that's always been the problem with EVs. They do have disadvantages but every time one of them is brought up we either get straight told (essentially) "No, that's not and you're lying and just trying to come up with reasons you hate EVs" or we get offered some super-complicated solution ("Just unhitch your trailer every time you want to recharge.") that is so insanely impractical if feels like deliberate trolling.

It seems strange to me that such niche cases have become such an important point of contention.

For the tiny portion of people needing to pull trailers and RVs long distances, a typical EV might be a poor solution. Surely there are technical solutions for such problems, be it oversized batteries, swappable packs, accepting that trailers might have to stop and charge with higher frequency, or allowing ICE's to continue to fill this small niche need.

 

[The Don]

Well that's always been the problem with EVs. They do have disadvantages but every time one of them is brought up we either get straight told (essentially) "No, that's not and you're lying and just trying to come up with reasons you hate EVs" or we get offered some super-complicated solution ("Just unhitch your trailer every time you want to recharge.") that is so insanely impractical if feels like deliberate trolling.

Or drive nose-in to the charging point given the location of the charging plug on the vehicle.

 

[The Don]

It seems strange to me that such niche cases have become such an important point of contention.

Perhaps it's because it fuels the "it can never work" narrative which always seems to accompany any significant change.

Unless electric vehicles meet 100% of requirements (real or imagined), 100% of the time then they are a niche product aimed at a suburban elite. Norway in particular shows that this does not necessarily be the case, but this can be ignored for *reasons*.

I admit that I was definitely in this camp until comparatively recently. Because two years ago I had to do a 600 mile round trip every couple of weeks, I had convinced myself that an EV was no use to me. Even after my father died and I no longer had to make that journey any more, I continued to believe that an EV would not meet my requirements.

A couple of friends have now gone fully EV. One can charge at home (for free, he has a wind turbine and lots of solar), the other has no at home capability and relies on the public charging network. Neither seem to have any significant issues and it's caused me to reverse my position.

These days, the only trips I would need to make which are beyond the range of a mid-market EV are the once or twice a year holidays where we would take a car. I'm sure I could change my driving regimen. Currently I'd drive for up to 14 hours straight to France stopping only for the Channel Tunnel or re-fuelling. I'm pretty sure that Mrs Don would be much happier if the drive was split over 2 days with pauses every 3-4 hours to recharge both the vehicle and its occupants.

 

[Shalamar]

Well that's always been the problem with EVs. They do have disadvantages but every time one of them is brought up we either get straight told (essentially) "No, that's not and you're lying and just trying to come up with reasons you hate EVs" or we get offered some super-complicated solution ("Just unhitch your trailer every time you want to recharge.") that is so insanely impractical if feels like deliberate trolling.

Like being told the only way to charge an EV on a long trip are 42 hour charge times? yeah no.

Towing is an issue. Though 3 out of the 6 Superchargers had a 'pull in' charger instead of 'back in' to allow for anyone who was towing.

 

[Shalamar]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but what happens with the people which are the majority, that don't have off street parking to charge.

Is it just going to be a how many extra long extension chords kids can cut for a laugh competition?

As frankly, at about10- 13 I would have probably found it funny.

This is a 'chicken or egg' scenario.

People won't buy EV's without infrastructure, and infrastructure won't get built without EV's in place.

Tesla did is right. Show that EV's can be practical, AND build up their own charge network at the same time.

Problem is that the non-Tesla charge network, while it exists, is lacking. especially the level 3 fast DC chargers.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is a 'chicken or egg' scenario.

People won't buy EV's without infrastructure, and infrastructure won't get built without EV's in place.

Tesla did is right. Show that EV's can be practical, AND build up their own charge network at the same time.

Problem is that the non-Tesla charge network, while it exists, is lacking. especially the level 3 fast DC chargers.

I wonder what the stats are like for these charge stations.

The few people I know that own EVs have access to home and/or work charging and don't rely on supercharging except in unusual circumstances. One drove from across the state and used a supercharger before heading back, which was very convenient, but I don't think there's even a supercharger very close to where he actually lives.

Is there any good data on how often people are actually using these superchargers rather than just relying on parked trickle charging? They are definitely nice to have, but I doubt that many see them as their primary source for power.

Be able to charge your vehicle while it's parked either at home or at work seems like the obvious best solution, utilizing the long periods of times that vehicles are already idle while not inconveniencing the driver one bit.

I worry that the current path seems to be heavily privatized, with individual networks that may or may not be compatible. Standardization should be enforced, and soon, in order to make this technology more viable. Just say no to dongles.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

As has been pointed out, EV's are not for everyone at the moment. They are too expensive, the range is often not comparable to ICE cars and charging can be difficult.

These are all being worked upon.

I'm lucky. I could afford to be a (fairly) early adopter, I'm able to charge on the driveway, there was a reasonable charging infrastructure in the UK (which is getting better), and I have no desire to tow anything.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It seems strange to me that such niche cases have become such an important point of contention.

And then we get told that all problems brought up are "niche cases."

So far:

- I live in an apartment and can't install my own charger
- I might have to driver further than the range of my car and can't wait for a charge that takes many times longer than just pumping gas
- Electric cars are still probability expensive (and no "but tax incentives!" doesn't change that.)

Are all "niche cases."

I swear if you guys were home salesmans you'd be like "It only rains in Las Vegas a few days a year, that means having a house with a roof is a niche market."

People here are (both intentionally and not) equating "Daily driving habits" with "The only features/capabilities it's reasonable to expect a production car to have."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And then we get told that all problems brought up are "niche cases."

So far:

- I live in an apartment and can't install my own charger
- I might have to driver further than the range of my car and can't wait for a charge that takes many times longer than just pumping gas
- Electric cars are still probability expensive (and not "but tax incentives!"

Are all "niche cases."

I swear if you guys were home salesmans you'd be like "It only rains in Las Vegas a maximum of 1 inch a year, having a house with a roof is a niche market."

People here are (both intentionally and not) equating "Daily driving habits" with "The only features a production car needs to have."

Maybe someone has claimed the lack of widespread charging is not a problem, but not I. The lack of infrastructure and high cost is generally accepted by everyone as barriers for adoption at the moment.

A truck pulling a trailer hundreds of miles is a niche case, surely you admit this?

 

[JoeMorgue]

A truck pulling a trailer hundreds of miles is a niche case, surely you admit this?

Again it's matter if makes EVs non-viable for many people. That's all I'm saying.

If we push for widespread EV adoption up to and including outright banning of internal combustions engines (which HAS been discussed in a serious manner) these people are going to be SOL.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Again it's matter if makes EVs non-viable for many people. That's all I'm saying.

If we push for widespread EV adoption up to and including outright banning of internal combustions engines (which HAS been discussed in a serious manner) these people are going to be SOL.

How many is "many" in this example? How common is it for people to pull trailers hundreds of miles?

Yes, banning or otherwise making people pay for the high externalized costs of ICEs probably will become part of the conversation once EV technology is mature enough to be a viable solution. Or, at least, I hope it does. I don't see how requiring people pulling campers long distance to stop with higher frequency is an exorbitant ask considering the context of the dire emergency of climate change.

Pollution through driving has long been treated as "free". Changing this might change people's habits, including making regularly driving long distances in private vehicles a less convenient option.

The days of pulling a giant camper all over creation and getting 8 miles to the gallon might be coming to an end.

 

[JoeMorgue]

How many is "many" in this example? How common is it for people to pull trailers hundreds of miles?

Yes, banning or otherwise making people pay for the high externalized costs of ICEs probably will become part of the conversation once EV technology is mature enough to be a viable solution. I don't see how requiring people pulling campers long distance to stop with higher frequency is an exorbitant ask.

Pollution through driving has long been treated as "free". Changing this might change people's habits, including making regularly driving long distances in private vehicles a less convenient option.

Because as I said when this discussion first started the end result of that is another "improvement" that has zero to minimal effect on people who live in dense urban clusters but massive effect on people on live in rural areas, people who are then demonized when they react negatively to it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Because as I said when this discussion first started the end result of that is another "improvement" that has zero to minimal effect on people who live in dense urban clusters but massive effect on people on live in rural areas, people who are then demonized when they react negatively to it.

Is there any good data suggesting that rural people are going to have such problems? Rural people drive further daily than urban people, but hundreds of miles per day is well above average even in these cases. Seems to me that rural people are facing the same barriers that everyone is else regarding EVs, cost and access to convenient charging stations at home/work.

Pulling a large trailer hundreds of miles is an expensive proposition as it is now. My hunch is that it's a pretty small number of people doing this now.

ETA: For people driving long distances regularly, not being subject to the whims of the volatile gas market might be a welcome change. There's plenty of evidence that people's vehicle buying and driving habits are informed by gas prices, so getting people onto a more stable energy grid might take a major uncontrollable variable off the table.

 

[jadebox]

Maybe someone has claimed the lack of widespread charging is not a problem, but not I. The lack of infrastructure and high cost is generally accepted by everyone as barriers for adoption at the moment.

As the Rock Man said, "You hear what you want to hear and you see what you want to see."

Pointing out that those who can charge at home have less need for public chargers isn't tbe same as saying there are enough chargers. Not does it label people living in apartments as a "niche.". But, I guess others might see it that way.

Like others here, I have shared my experiences with an EV in my posts and speculated about the future I have countered some misconceptions posted about EVs, but I have also pointed out challenges such as charging when towing a trailer.

I am an EV advocate because I own one and have found it to make my life better than it was when I drove a gas-powered car. Any environmental benefits are just a bonus. I know an EV isn't right for everyone now, but I am sure an EV is in almost everyone's future.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is there any good data suggesting that rural people are going to have such problems? Rural people drive further daily than urban people, but hundreds of miles per day is well above average even in these cases.

It doesn't need to be daily. Even if it's, say, only once a month, but you still have to do it once a month, then that's a problem. Hell, even if you only need to do it once a year, but you have to do it once a year, it's a problem.