Electric Vehicles

[bruto]

I suppose it depends on what cars one can buy but I doubt the economics of renting a car when you own one already. It would seem to make more sense to own a car that can do more, or, as many do, to own more than one. The ecological issue remains unresolved, depending on how often you would need the larger or less economical vehicle, and how much you use the one you own.

I can certainly see the benefit for many of owning a little electric runabout for local use and renting a truck or taking public transport when it's needed, but the way the issue was presented sounds a little bit compulsory, and there are other ways of doing this too, I think.

I live in the country, where rental and borrowing and the like are impractical, and besides that, although the mileage is short, I often need the capacity of a truck. I can afford to own what I please. My solution to this is to have a cheap little economical runabout which I use most of the time, and a pickup truck which is only driven a handful of miles a year. I doubt I put more than a thousand miles a year on it, but when it's what I need, it's what I really need. That's a better and more convenient deal for me than spot rental from some unspecified agency which may or may not have what I need, and to which I would need transportation. Besides, the truck has four wheel drive, which is occasionally really needed in blizzards.

If an electric runabout becomes reliably useful around here, I might well replace the little econobox with one, and still keep something like a truck or an SUV with a trailer hitch as a backup and work vehicle.

 

[The Don]

I suppose it depends on what cars one can buy but I doubt the economics of renting a car when you own one already. It would seem to make more sense to own a car that can do more, or, as many do, to own more than one. The ecological issue remains unresolved, depending on how often you would need the larger or less economical vehicle, and how much you use the one you own.

I can certainly see the benefit for many of owning a little electric runabout for local use and renting a truck or taking public transport when it's needed, but the way the issue was presented sounds a little bit compulsory, and there are other ways of doing this too, I think.

I live in the country, where rental and borrowing and the like are impractical, and besides that, although the mileage is short, I often need the capacity of a truck. I can afford to own what I please. My solution to this is to have a cheap little economical runabout which I use most of the time, and a pickup truck which is only driven a handful of miles a year. I doubt I put more than a thousand miles a year on it, but when it's what I need, it's what I really need. That's a better and more convenient deal for me than spot rental from some unspecified agency which may or may not have what I need, and to which I would need transportation. Besides, the truck has four wheel drive, which is occasionally really needed in blizzards.

If an electric runabout becomes reliably useful around here, I might well replace the little econobox with one, and still keep something like a truck or an SUV with a trailer hitch as a backup and work vehicle.

I'd have thought that electric power for a pickup would be ideal. Weight is less of an issue for a pickup and the bed provides an excellent place to locate batteries so there could be plenty of capacity. The huge amount of torque from an electric motor would seem to be ideal for hauling, four wheel drive isn't an issue and a heavy four wheel drive pickup with a low centre of gravity would have a large towing capacity.

The comparative simplicity of electrical powertrains would also mean that they'd suffer less from infrequent use.

 

[MRC_Hans]

What's the problem in understanding? You state that you can own a car you like but only use it for.....etc.

Who says what car I like, and who says what I can use it for? What if I don't like the business model? I don't rent my house either. I like station wagons, and it would not be convenient, out here in the country, to have to file a flight plan to insure that I won't be punished for unapproved uses.

I'm not against regulations as such, but it seems like a very difficult thing to do well.

I'm not saying the model would not work well for many, and would not make sense, especially in heavily settled areas, but it sounds a little cumbersome.

I really don't imagine a high level of regulation. More like a market thing. Those who insist on owning their own car can do so, but there may in the long run be restrictions, like not being allowed in city centers.

Also as fuel cars become in minority, fuel may get expensive and harder to get.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Why would somebody who owns a vehicle want to use somebody else's?

Because, ultimately it will be cheaper.

Hans

 

[bruto]

I'd have thought that electric power for a pickup would be ideal. Weight is less of an issue for a pickup and the bed provides an excellent place to locate batteries so there could be plenty of capacity. The huge amount of torque from an electric motor would seem to be ideal for hauling, four wheel drive isn't an issue and a heavy four wheel drive pickup with a low centre of gravity would have a large towing capacity.

The comparative simplicity of electrical powertrains would also mean that they'd suffer less from infrequent use.

true enough, eventually. As you say, the high load capacity of a truck is ideal for batteries. The relatively short mileages I use mine for would work. But that's speculative at this point.

I really don't imagine a high level of regulation. More like a market thing. Those who insist on owning their own car can do so, but there may in the long run be restrictions, like not being allowed in city centers.

Also as fuel cars become in minority, fuel may get expensive and harder to get.

Hans

That's also true, at least for urban dwellers.

Because, ultimately it will be cheaper.

Hans

That remains in the distant future, and depends in some degree on what happens with the used market. At this point the issue for some is not whether it is cheaper, but whether it is practicable.

At some time in the future, when there is no such thing as a cheap old pickup truck, it will become more economical to rent a horribly expensive, exotic electric one instead of owning it. And that will probably be an overall good thing for the world. But it's a long way off.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I'd have thought that electric power for a pickup would be ideal. Weight is less of an issue for a pickup and the bed provides an excellent place to locate batteries so there could be plenty of capacity. The huge amount of torque from an electric motor would seem to be ideal for hauling, four wheel drive isn't an issue and a heavy four wheel drive pickup with a low centre of gravity would have a large towing capacity.

The comparative simplicity of electrical powertrains would also mean that they'd suffer less from infrequent use.

Agreed, but there are issues.

One issue is that loading a truck with batteries then decreases the useful payload that it can carry. You get into a situation where the truck has to be very stout to carry the batteries necessary to move the very stout truck and the expected payload over useful range. Not impossible, just an issue.

As to towing, the main issue there is reduced range due to aero loads. Even a well designed trailer will reduce range significantly. I imagine we will be seeing upscale trailers that have extra capacity built in, possibly even regenerative braking instead of friction braking. I don't think adding a motor at the trailer axle is necessary or would add to stability, even though it becomes simple once regen braking is designed in.

This all will be easier in the US since we have much heavier trailers for personal use than are allowed in the EU, so far as I am aware.

Nonetheless, I first saw a Tesla towing an Airstream years ago. Enthusiasts will find a way.

Personally, I look at the new F150 as a pretty good stepping stone to what will be far more efficient personal trucks. It has a hybrid system that provides short distance electric operation as well as useful electric service for a work site. Would be nice if camping out and you needed a bit of juice, even if it is far more expensive than a generator.

 

[MRC_Hans]

That remains in the distant future, and depends in some degree on what happens with the used market. At this point the issue for some is not whether it is cheaper, but whether it is practicable.

No reason the think it's that distant. EVs are quickly becoming main-stream technology and as such, they are simpler then a fuel car and have potential to be come cheaper. Look what happened to power tools.

At some time in the future, when there is no such thing as a cheap old pickup truck, it will become more economical to rent a horribly expensive, exotic electric one instead of owning it. And that will probably be an overall good thing for the world. But it's a long way off.

At that time, the electric one will neither be horribly expensive nor exotic, whether you decide to own it or rent it. Actually, at that time, your cheap old pickup truck will probably be electric.

Give it twenty years ...

Hans

 

[bruto]

No reason the think it's that distant. EVs are quickly becoming main-stream technology and as such, they are simpler then a fuel car and have potential to be come cheaper. Look what happened to power tools.



At that time, the electric one will neither be horribly expensive nor exotic, whether you decide to own it or rent it. Actually, at that time, your cheap old pickup truck will probably be electric.

Give it twenty years ...

Hans

Perhaps. Remember, though, that in the case of power tools, for example, a new battery for my cordless drill costs several times what a corded tool costs even now, and while buying a used cordless tool is likely a poor bet, I can pick up an old corded tool from anywhere (I've gotten a few from free piles), and it will work. The tools are much more affordable, and worth having now, but the skewed cost of maintenance versus replacement is also part of a throw-away culture that is bad enough for tools but could be a worse problem with something as big as cars.

This is not to say that it's impossible to set up an infrastructure in which these things will work, and work well for most people, but it's not been done yet. It's one of the reasons you can find a spiffy Prius a few years old for little more than scrap price.

So it's likely true that in a fairly near future, that cheap old pickup will be electric, but it remains to see if it will be cheap to own. Among other things, a battery will discharge and age with time alone, while a gas vehicle (rust aside) will age mostly from use.

 

[bruto]

I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It also sounds like yet another thing that the people who live in a dense, urban core high population areas are going to go "Oh this solves everything! Everyone should do this! There's no downsides provided your lifestyle is exactly like ours!" and then start treating rural people like stupid hicks when they point out "This doesn't work for us."

Well, we already have taxis so the problem is already solved, right?

Let them eat cake in the back of an Uber, or something.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.

I think that once these things go mainstream, it will be like every other thing: Standard components. Some manufacturers will make motors, some will make controllers, some will make batteries, etc. Of course, all the brands will pretend they make their own products, but, like present cars, washing machines, etc., we all know that up to four "different" brands are really the same product dressed in slightly different outer body parts, and slightly different feature packages.

Hans

 

[Dr. Keith]

I think that once these things go mainstream, it will be like every other thing: Standard components. Some manufacturers will make motors, some will make controllers, some will make batteries, etc. Of course, all the brands will pretend they make their own products, but, like present cars, washing machines, etc., we all know that up to four "different" brands are really the same product dressed in slightly different outer body parts, and slightly different feature packages.

Hans

Even better, we may be entering the second great era of coach building, with brands like Zagato, Pininfarina, Ghia, and Vanden Plas all set to make you a bespoke body for a skateboard made by one of the big 4 or 5 manufacturers. That could see the advent of choices that haven't been available for decades.

The regulatory hurdles would be huge, but there was recent change for kits that could be broadened to include this sort industry.

Even better, you could hire a personal designer and have the body manufactured for you, like a bespoke suit.

People afraid that everyone will have the same thing are only scared because they keep buying the same camry and can't imagine why anyone would buy an accord.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.

This is a trend being embraced by all manufacturing that needs to be better regulated. Right to repair is a huge issue from John Deere to Apple, not just Tesla.

ETA: I always think of the 911 as the best example of triumph of development over design. You build the same car for long enough and you can't help but make it better.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Even better, we may be entering the second great era of coach building, with brands like Zagato, Pininfarina, Ghia, and Vanden Plas all set to make you a bespoke body for a skateboard made by one of the big 4 or 5 manufacturers. That could see the advent of choices that haven't been available for decades.

The regulatory hurdles would be huge, but there was recent change for kits that could be broadened to include this sort industry.

Even better, you could hire a personal designer and have the body manufactured for you, like a bespoke suit.

People afraid that everyone will have the same thing are only scared because they keep buying the same camry and can't imagine why anyone would buy an accord.

Yes, I have been thinking along those lines as well. What could support that is that the mechanical parts of an EV would have a very long life-time. And once recycling of batteries gets well organized, battery prices should come down.

Hans

 

[bruto]

I agree with most of that, but we need some strong regulation, I think, to overcome the "John Deere" effect, in which one has to "jailbreak" a tractor in order for it even to start if you've put in a used part, even if it's genuine.

My hope is that even without regulation some savvy manufacturers might realize that "you can repair it anywhere" is a sales feature, but these days people are pretty willing to accept the complication and privatization of everything.

Bespoke coachwork and the like is great, but it doesn't answer the problem if you can't get a replacement key or you find yourself stuck in East Jesus and your car won't start unless you tow it to the dealer in another state.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm not looking forward to my car being just another thing I'm only renting the right to use under someone else's rules.

I doubt that is going to happen that quickly if at all. Still, I imagine a great many people not owning a vehicle and autonomous vehicles charging around the corner driving to and taking you to your destination and then going to another charging lot or space.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I agree with most of that, but we need some strong regulation, I think, to overcome the "John Deere" effect, in which one has to "jailbreak" a tractor in order for it even to start if you've put in a used part, even if it's genuine.

My hope is that even without regulation some savvy manufacturers might realize that "you can repair it anywhere" is a sales feature, but these days people are pretty willing to accept the complication and privatization of everything.

Bespoke coachwork and the like is great, but it doesn't answer the problem if you can't get a replacement key or you find yourself stuck in East Jesus and your car won't start unless you tow it to the dealer in another state.

Agreed, but this isn't really an electric vehicle problem. It a market issue across all products. I remember hearing that BMW was going to move a feature from an option to a subscription and I thought: That's not helping!

 

[Shalamar]

I should add that I'm a bit conflicted on this whole issue. All my life, I've had a great affection for electric vehicles in principle, and wished they were more practical or better developed. The ability of an electric motor to deliver full torque over a nearly limitless range of RPM is vastly superior to the complicated and finicky IC engine and drive train.

The IC engine is a little like the audio cassette: a terribly deficient initial idea refined to surprisingly high quality. Or, as I long ago read in some motorcycle magazine's review of a BMW twin: the triumph of development over design.

What I'm not so keen on is the intersection of software, digital copyrighting, and integrated complexity on the basically straightforward technology of electric motors. This not to say that a Tesla is no better than great grandma's Baker Electric, but much of that improvement is not dependent on software. Somewhere along the line, although IC engines are hugely complex and expensive to make, economy of scale has made them cheap, and until recently culture made them fixable using parts and practices not dependent on the manufacturer.

The trend nowadays, which seems to be embraced by at least some electric car makers, is to maintain corporate ownership of vital parts of the vehicle's ability to operate well. My shade tree mechanic side finds this troublesome.

The software side of EV's is somewhat troublesome, but not unexpected. Pretty much any software you buy is merely licensed, and not purchased.

There have been reports of people selling their Teslas with the software add-ons like Full Self Drive, and Tesla removing the software from the care because the new owners didn't pay for it.

As well, Tesla also want full control over who does, and does not get to repair your vehicle. People who have bought Salvaged Teslas and fixed them themselves, or had others done the work have found that Tesla has removed them from the Supercharge network. Even in some cases where Tesla said the work was up to spec.

And yet, I still bought a Tesla. Best damn car I've ever owned.

 

[acbytesla]

The software side of EV's is somewhat troublesome, but not unexpected. Pretty much any software you buy is merely licensed, and not purchased.

There have been reports of people selling their Teslas with the software add-ons like Full Self Drive, and Tesla removing the software from the care because the new owners didn't pay for it.

As well, Tesla also want full control over who does, and does not get to repair your vehicle. People who have bought Salvaged Teslas and fixed them themselves, or had others done the work have found that Tesla has removed them from the Supercharge network. Even in some cases where Tesla said the work was up to spec.

And yet, I still bought a Tesla. Best damn car I've ever owned.

FYI: Tesla has changed a few things. Tesla offered free supercharging to the original owner only. Every other feature is now transferable without charge. At least that is my understanding.

 

[bruto]

FYI: Tesla has changed a few things. Tesla offered free supercharging to the original owner only. Every other feature is now transferable without charge. At least that is my understanding.

I would imagine some of this will straighten out as the market changes. AT this point Tesla has virtues that make people willing to buy it, and few real competitors. As more companies come in, if they decide to offer better service, Tesla will find it has to match. Also, if their policies diminish the trade-in value of their cars too much it will hurt their sales. But it all depends on whether other manufacturers decide to be really competitive or to feed at the same trough.