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Electric Planes

Ziggurat said:
That's hard for me to imagine. If you're rich and you want a private plane, why would you buy one with such a pathetically short range? You can't get anywhere with that. And if you're only flying it occasionally, it's not like any fuel savings are going to be important.
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Let's say you're a rich businessman or celebrity living in Nelson and working in Wellington. Only 71km but over water - and not exactly calm water either. Flying is the only practical solution for that commute, which you might be doing 5-6 times a week.

Cook Strait
Regular ferry services run between Picton in the Marlborough Sounds and Wellington, operated by KiwiRail (the Interislander) and StraitNZ (Bluebridge). Both companies run services several times a day. Roughly half the crossing is in the strait, and the remainder within the Sounds. The journey covers 70 kilometres (43 mi) and takes about three hours. The strait often experiences rough water and heavy swells from strong winds, especially from the south. New Zealand's position directly athwart the roaring forties means that the strait funnels westerly winds and deflects them into northerlies. As a result, ferry sailings are often disrupted and Cook Strait is regarded as one of the most dangerous and unpredictable waters in the world.
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Crossing by ferry isn't cheap either (~NZ$170 per walk-on passenger, NZ$430 per car), plus you would have to drive between Picton and Nelson - another 2 hour journey. Taking the time savings into account (the richer you are the more it's worth!), I reckon you could save a bundle on commuting costs with an electric aircraft.

Cook Straight isn't the only place where electric aircraft could be beneficial...
Harbour Air
Harbour Air Seaplanes is a scheduled floatplane service, tour and charter airline based in Richmond, British Columbia, Canada. The predominantly seaplane airline specializes in routes between Vancouver, Nanaimo, Victoria, Sechelt, Comox, Whistler and the Gulf Islands...

The airline was established and started operations in 1982 as Windoak Air Service to provide seaplane charter services for the forestry industry in British Columbia... Today, Harbour Air refers to itself as the world's largest all-seaplane airline and became North America's first carbon neutral airline.

In March 2019, Harbour Air announced plans to convert an aircraft to run on electricity, which would serve as a test prototype during a two-year duration regulatory approval process, and eventually hopes to convert its entire fleet to electric propulsion. The first plane to be converted is a de Havilland Canada DHC-2 Beaver...

The Pratt & Whitney R-985 Wasp Junior piston engine of the six-passenger ePlane is replaced by a 750 hp (560 kW), 135 kg (298 lb) magni500, with swappable batteries allowing 30 min flights plus 30 min of reserve power...

The plane completed its first point-to-point flight, from Vancouver to Victoria Airport Water Aerodrome near Sidney on Vancouver Island, on August 18, 2022, travelling 72 km (45 mi) in 24 minutes.
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I feel like a rich businessman would arrange his affairs to simply avoid an obnoxious daily commute. Especially in the current age. Why travel away from his Fortress of Solitude, at great expense and no little inconvenience, when he can simply teleconference from the idyllic haven of his choice?

Hell, I'm nowhere near "rich businessman", but I already don't make the 20 minute commute into the office most days, because working from home is easier and more productive than bothering to travel for work.
 
arthwollipot said:
200km isn't even the distance from Sydney to Canberra, which are the two most proximal capital cities in Australia.
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Roger Ramjets mentions the Vancouver Victoria pair. Though the distance between the international airports is about 30km more.

Calgary - Edmonton is just over the 200km limit by about 80 km.

Europe would have many possible high traffic routes. ;)
 
Roger Ramjets said:
Let's say you're a rich businessman or celebrity living in Nelson and working in Wellington. Only 71km but over water - and not exactly calm water either. Flying is the only practical solution for that commute, which you might be doing 5-6 times a week.
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Then get a helicopter. You won't even need to go through the airport, saving time.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Yeah... good point. I mean some celebrities might buy one like the buy a Prius, doesn't mean they always drive a Prius.

It looks like DHL has ordered some and a regional airline that does island hopping in the Caribbean, plus a charter co. And thats about it. 8 passengers*, and 290 miles is not good enough for all but a few edge cases. Sight seeing maybe?

When I think of feeder aircraft, I'm thinking like ~40ish people. Thats the smallest one I've evern been in myself.

*considering a cabin of 9 will have 1 flight attendant.
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Sounds Air flies the following routes (the blue ones are over water, so no land alternative.

Nelson <> Wellington 133KM
Nelson <> Paraparaumu 153 km
Blenheim <> Wellington 81 km
Blenheim <> Paraparaumu 111 km
Blenheim <> Christchurch 310 km
Wellington <> Westport 273 km
Wellington <> Taupo 307 km
Christchurch <> Wanaka 297 km


They fly the following aircraft

Cessna208.jpg

Cessna 208 Caravan (12 seats) Max Cruise 277 kph

PilatusPC12.jpg

Pilatus PC12 (9) Max Cruise Speed 500 kph


IMO, the Eviation Alice would be fine to replace the aging Caravans (which are rarely full) and to supplement the operations of the Pilatus on the short distance over water runs.
 
Ziggurat said:
Then get a helicopter. You won't even need to go through the airport, saving time.
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Helicopters are insanely expensive to run, dangerous, difficult to fly and not very comfortable.

You don't have to go through the airport if you have a seaplane either. Our hypothetical rich dude could get his pilot's license, and have a float plane moored at his private jetty right outside his beachfront property somewhere in the Marlborough Sounds. In the morning he walks straight out the door into the plane, flys to Wellington and lands in the harbour next to the Interisland Ferry Terminal. Plugs plane into charger (83% renewable electricity) ready for the flight back, hops in electric car and takes the short drive into the city. Or perhaps he's visiting his factory in Petone, so he lands at the northern end of the harbour.

In case you think a celebrity getting a pilot's license is 'out there', consider that the following people are pilots:-

Angelina Jolie
Brad Pitt
Clint Eastwood
Harrison Ford
Hilary Swank
Jimmy Buffett
John Travolta
Kurt Russell
Michael Dorn
Morgan Freeman
Patrick Dempsey
Tom Cruise
 
Ziggurat said:
Then get a helicopter. You won't even need to go through the airport, saving time.
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Utterly ludicrous. You have no idea whatsoever.

Roger Ramjets said:
Helicopters are insanely expensive to run, dangerous, difficult to fly and not very comfortable.
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100%, and I will put some figures on that for Zig...

The cheapest helicopter available in NZ is the Robinson R22. Cruise speed of 165 km/h, and running costs of NZ$720.00/hr. The Nelson <> Wellington trip in an R22 (if you can find anyone brave enough to fly one over water) will take 48 minutes, so each return trip will cost you NZ$1152.00.... and that's not including paying the pilot!

The smallest helicopter most suitable to fly that route safely is the Hughes 500. Cruise Speed 249 km/hr and running costs of NZ$1,900/hr. The Nelson <> Wellington trip in an MD500 will take 32 minutes, so each return trip will cost you NZ$2048.... and again, that's not including paying the pilot!

Sounds Air do this trip with either the Caravan (45 min, NZ$141 return) or the Pilatus (30 min, $195 return)
 
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Roger Ramjets said:
In case you think a celebrity getting a pilot's license is 'out there', consider that the following people are pilots:-

Angelina Jolie
Brad Pitt
Clint Eastwood
Harrison Ford
Hilary Swank
Jimmy Buffett
John Travolta
Kurt Russell
Michael Dorn
Morgan Freeman
Patrick Dempsey
Tom Cruise
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Tim McGraw
Zach Braff
Carol Vorderman
Prince Harry (got his PPL before joining the Army Air Corps)
Enrique Iglesias
James Franco
Gisele Bundchen (Also has a Helicopter Pilot's Licence)
Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden)
Phil McGraw (Dr. Phil)
Dennis Quaid
David Lee Roth (Van Halen)
Lorenzo Lamas
Alan Jackson
Kris Kristofferson
John Kerry
Phil Mickelson (has a CPL and flies his own Gulfstream G550)
Chuck Norris
‎
‎
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I think we should go back to the energy source for planes Richard Feynman nearly got a patent for.

nuclear
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The X-6/NB-36 were rather role specialised......

That said a sufficiently compact and lightweight NPU would make sense asa power source.
 
Puppycow said:
I saw a video recently about airships such as dirigibles. It's a very old idea and one that has mostly been shelved as impractical and obsolete but some people have ideas to bring them back for I guess hauling cargo mostly. Not sure it can ever really be a practical mode of transport though. Maybe for a few niche cases. The electric angle is that there would be a lot of surface area on the outsides of these balloons where you could have thin solar panels to generate electricity.

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There is some fascinating stuff happening in the field of LTA solids, essectially foamed vacuum, that has possibilities in this area. Unfortunately I'm NDA'dfrom giving details.

Research has been hampered by certain degree of paranoia spillover from the nuclear weapons business....
 
Ziggurat said:
Then get a helicopter. You won't even need to go through the airport, saving time.
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See, that's a serious problem for a 200km range fixed-wing aircraft: Airports are, for good reasons, situated at some distance from city centers. Trains are already electric and going directly into cities, they can offer shorter overall travel times than a short haul aircraft.

It is true that Europe has a lot of close-proximity destinations, but there is also already a well developed surface transport system.

However, I think we should only view current e-plane projects as experimental. They represent the field experiment stage. The commercial stage is still some time into the future.

Hans
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power_transfer

In far-field or radiative techniques, also called power beaming, power is transferred by beams of electromagnetic radiation, like microwaves[8] or laser beams. These techniques can transport energy longer distances but must be aimed at the receiver. Proposed applications for this type include solar power satellites and wireless powered drone aircraft.[9][10][11]
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Is this ever going to be a practical possibility for powering electric planes? It would certainly solve the problem of heavy batteries, but would presumably require a massive network of power transmitters (probably in orbit as well as on the ground for ocean crossing flights) and phenomenal accuracy in aiming the beams.
 
Planigale said:
Orkney is leading the way. Loganair are planning to retrofit Norman_Britten Islander aircraft with electric engines. The inter island flights are short and ideal for electric flights.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/busi...flights-2030-loganair-pioneers-future-flight/
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And this is not the first retrofit.

Back in 2019, Harbor Air (Vancouver BC) began retrofitting a DHC2 Beaver Seaplane with a 750 HP Magnix electric motor. It made its first test flight in the same year. But as is usual with any new technology, the innovators are outpacing the bureaucrats and paper pushers' ability to keep up. The FAA have been dragging their feet and have taken four years so far just to certify the engine to power a passenger aircraft.

Nonetheless, there are a couple of very interesting aeronautical engineering aspects to converting this type of aircraft.

1. The standard DHC-2 does not carry fuel in its wings. All the fuel is stored in belly tanks. During the retrofit, the belly tank is replaced with batteries that are shaped and designed to fit in the fuel tank space. Its need to carry more batteries than the tank space will hold, so some additional batteries have to be distributed under the floor in such a way as to maintain weight and balance (C of G). Of course, as battery efficiencies improve, fewer and fewer batteries will have to be carried

2. The standard DHC-2 is fitted with a an R985 Wasp Junior radial engine and its power curve is very specific - it has a limited range of RPM over which the most power is developed. Therefore, propellers have to be designed in such a way as to take advantage of the peak in the power curve. They must have finer pitch at low RPM to allow the engine to quickly spool up to the RPM where the power is, so the propeller pitch can be increased to give maximum propulsion. But electric motors work differently. They provide almost instant power from low RPM evenly across the whole range. And that power is available immediately the throttle is pushed up. This means propellers can be designed to operate with coarser pitch at low RPM too.
 
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Pixel42 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power_transfer



Is this ever going to be a practical possibility for powering electric planes? It would certainly solve the problem of heavy batteries, but would presumably require a massive network of power transmitters (probably in orbit as well as on the ground for ocean crossing flights) and phenomenal accuracy in aiming the beams.
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Well, it sounds crazy enough to be a possibility. Aiming should not be too big a problem. We can aim a signal at a space-probe millions of miles away.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Well, it sounds crazy enough to be a possibility. Aiming should not be too big a problem. We can aim a signal at a space-probe millions of miles away.
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Signal spreads over millions of miles, and we don't much care if we're a little off-target.

Throwing heavier-than-air-flight amounts of energy out of the sky, towards a moving plane with the inhabited surface of the Earth in the background seems like a terrible place for "aiming should not be too big a problem".
 
smartcooky said:
Sounds Air flies the following routes (the blue ones are over water, so no land alternative.

Nelson <> Wellington 133KM
Nelson <> Paraparaumu 153 km
Blenheim <> Wellington 81 km
Blenheim <> Paraparaumu 111 km
Blenheim <> Christchurch 310 km
Wellington <> Westport 273 km
Wellington <> Taupo 307 km
Christchurch <> Wanaka 297 km


They fly the following aircraft

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3p6ou7zeag0xhl3j2d42x/Cessna208.jpg?rlkey=7st69s5pojt0t1e0tps1gr34f&raw=1[/qimg]
Cessna 208 Caravan (12 seats) Max Cruise 277 kph

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gbcoa06bk53am2oen7zy4/PilatusPC12.jpg?rlkey=gzownkn8x8g657q9hydth4kb0&raw=1[/qimg]
Pilatus PC12 (9) Max Cruise Speed 500 kph


IMO, the Eviation Alice would be fine to replace the aging Caravans (which are rarely full) and to supplement the operations of the Pilatus on the short distance over water runs.
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Yeah, I agree. This plane could fit nicely into a niche of short, over water, low demand, flights. Although they will need recharging infrastructure put in at those airports. But, the savings of having to ship in fuel to islands, or other remote airports, will make it worth it over the long run I imagine.
 
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