Electric Cars - Automobile Industry

[scotth]

There is some murmering about some new storage technology that is more like existing capacitors than batteries. The big news is that the energy density is of a similar order as a can of gasoline.

Electric cars could be competive today, superior more likely, if battery tech allowed similar energy as 10 gallons of gasoline to be stored in a 200lb package of reasonable size.

Hopefully somebody can find a link to this.... I'm coming up with nothing relevant.

Target info for searching:

Technology developed by Bell Labs.
Bell Labs recently created a (privately held) company to bring this Tech to market.
Nobody at the new firm or within Bell Labs is interested in discussing this with the media
And maybe titanium being involved in a new type of capacitor.

Clearly, battery based would be easier to work with than the voltage decay curve of a capacitor. But, that can be overcome if the energy density is there.

 

[joobz]

Then how do you charge an electric car on a cross country trip? What's the recharge rate? I'd hate to have to refuel in 8 hours what used to take 5 minutes.

Electric cars may serve a nitch like in cities, (maybe something like the smart car). however, this idea never caught on in the states. Although, if you can imagine what cities would sound like if you removed all of those combustion engines with quite buzzes. that'd definitely be peaceful.

 

[Cuddles]

Diesel is really a strong alternative, you just need to our technology. The reason why diesel didn't work before was that engines were noisy and exaust was sooty

Diesel is just as pointless as petrol. There is a limited supply of oil and we are getting close to running out. Biodiesel is more promising, but has the problems I posted above.

 

[scotth]

Then how do you charge an electric car on a cross country trip? What's the recharge rate? I'd hate to have to refuel in 8 hours what used to take 5 minutes.

Electric cars may serve a nitch like in cities, (maybe something like the smart car). however, this idea never caught on in the states. Although, if you can imagine what cities would sound like if you removed all of those combustion engines with quite buzzes. that'd definitely be peaceful.

The recharge rate is supposed to be just minutes.... That would obviously require a charging system that delivers a massive power flow. Probably a slow, overnight charge at home, and a fast charge at 'filling stations' using special high power equipment.

 

[Cuddles]

Right. There you've got a car which gradually degrades in performance over hundreds of hours, and then you're presented with a bill for new membranes.

Because obviously no other car has parts that wear out. Generally, hydrogen fuel cells have much longer lifetimes than this, it's the ones that run on methane or convert gas themselves that have a problem with short lifetimes.

 

[scotth]

Diesel is just as pointless as petrol. There is a limited supply of oil and we are getting close to running out.

I think you will be amazed how much more oil the world has left at 40-70 bucks a barrel. We are getting low on oil that can be had for $20 barrel. The higher price will make enormous volumes of oil economically recoverable.

With the higher prices, all you see in North Texas are oil and gas drilling rigs, everywhere.

 

[joobz]

Diesel is just as pointless as petrol. There is a limited supply of oil and we are getting close to running out. Biodiesel is more promising, but has the problems I posted above.

When I say deisel, I include the development of biodeisel as well. I just hate the word biodeisel since adding "bio" to the front of terms is a huge trend in science, along with adding "nano"

But as for biodeisel limitations, I again state that the processing technology will improve quite fast, provided the market exists. Since Diesel cars can already accept portions of biodeisel...you don't need to worry about creating both the car and the energy source.

Yup, I would love to see a zero carbon economy, but I haven't seen real alternatives. The best we can do right now is generate renewable sources. Then figure out what to do with the CO2.

But again, you need to show a energy/Carbon emission to see if electric cars are better. Everyone is claiming electric power comes from sunshine and giggles, but until all powerplants are non-fossil fuel this isn't true.

 

[scotth]

Yup, I would love to see a zero carbon economy, but I haven't seen real alternatives. The best we can do right now is generate renewable sources. Then figure out what to do with the CO2.

But again, you need to show a energy/Carbon emission to see if electric cars are better. Everyone is claiming electric power comes from sunshine and giggles, but until all powerplants are non-fossil fuel this isn't true.

If you generate a renewable resource, you don't have to figure out what to do with the carbon. You had to sequester carbon to make the fuel. You wind with a carbon 'wash' after the fuel is consumed.

Electricity is generated by a mix of fuel technologies. Significant portions are carbonless, today. And for that which is not carbonless, it would be much easier to build carbon re-capturing technology for a relatively few non-mobile/size-doesn't-matter-as-much power plants, than attempting to attatch it to every tail pipe.

 

[joobz]

If you generate a renewable resource, you don't have to figure out what to do with the carbon. You had to sequester carbon to make the fuel. You wind with a carbon 'wash' after the fuel is consumed.

Conceptually, yes. But Practically. I'm talking about farming production of biodeisel, which is renewable not sustainable. As for carbon scrubbers, show me one that isn't costly and reclaims carbon in a non-oxidzied form. There are some biomass attempts at this, I don't know how effective they are.

Electricity is generated by a mix of fuel technologies. Significant portions are carbonless, today.

current estimates:
U.S. Electricity Sources (from world fact book http://bartleby.com/151/fields/77.html)
fossil fuel: 71.4%
hydro: 5.6%
other: 2.3% (2001)
nuclear: 20.7%

You have a strange definition of Significant. with 71% electricty coming from fossil fuels, electric cars aren't going to be that much better than hybrids. And with that extra power drain on the electric grid, brownouts will be a much more common phenomenon until Power companies create more plants, which will increase cost of electricity and increase carbon output...

And for that which is not carbonless, it would be much easier to build carbon re-capturing technology for a relatively few non-mobile/size-doesn't-matter-as-much power plants, than attempting to attatch it to every tail pipe.

I almost would have to agree with you here. Except, considering the shear mass of CO2 produced at each powerplant, that would be heck of a reclimation setup needed. And like I said, I do not know of any technology that can really do it in the way you think it should be done.
You have chemical scrubbers only traps CO2 and it must be released to be reused
you have Activated carbon adsorbers: same as the chemical scrubber
Biomass (algaes): You'd need an amazing amount of algae to get all of the CO2.

 

[roger]

Although, if you can imagine what cities would sound like if you removed all of those combustion engines with quite buzzes. that'd definitely be peaceful.

Most automobile noise is due to tire noise, not engine noise, I do believe.

 

[joobz]

Most automobile noise is due to tire noise, not engine noise, I do believe.

you believe half true. Engine noise is the larger source of external noise pollution. By elliminating the need for continuous controlled explosions, you'd cut down on noise pollution a ton. But fully, but a lot.

If you ever sat at a stopsign in a hybrid, you'd know what i mean.

 

[Serenity]

The solution will likely be a shotgun approach: Hybrids, electrics, and hydrogen, with each catering to their own niche market.

Check out this well delivered and informative MIT lecture for some interesting perspective. Don't miss the Q&A at the end. One of the speaker’s many points: If we can’t move beyond platinum (or other exotic metals) for fuel cell construction, fuel cells will remain costly and increase in direct proportion to demand.

The following Honda Solar Hydrogen Refueling Station if I recall correctly--when run off-grid--using solar, it is only capable of delivering one families yearly energy needs. Great concept though when or if it becomes cheap enough. Manufacture hydrogen via a blend of off-peak grid utilization and solar/wind, etc...
http://www.ieahia.org/pdfs/honda.pdf

 

[ponderingturtle]

Most automobile noise is due to tire noise, not engine noise, I do believe.

This depends alot on how good the exaust system is.

 

[luchog]

Conceptually, yes. But Practically. I'm talking about farming production of biodeisel, which is renewable not sustainable.

It is perfectly possible to grow commercial biodiesel and other biofuel crops using sustainable methods. Some will even grow well on marginal land.

As for carbon, using strictly biofuels, carbon recover isn't necessary, since all recovered carbon is part of the existing carbon cycle. The problem with fossil fuels is that utilization of them releases massive amounts of carbon which has been sequestered for millenia, and is not part of the existing carbon cycle.

 

[snooziums]

Diesel cars last forever. (Typical engine life span is +300,000miles). You consider the waste of the gas, consider the waste of the car. It's not trivial. What's the life span of an electric car?

The electric motor should last for a very long time.

Oh, and let us not forget steam engines. Those last practically forever.

There is some murmering about some new storage technology that is more like existing capacitors than batteries. The big news is that the energy density is of a similar order as a can of gasoline.

Since I had two years in electronics in college, maybe I should say something. Capacitors can store quite a bit of energy, and they charge and discharge very fast. They are used in power supplies (to hold power between the AC cycles), and in applications like camera flashes that require lots of energy fast.

The problems with capacitors is that the leek energy internally, very badly. Let one sit for a while and it will discharge over half of its energy. Not a good choice if you want something that can sit for a while. The second problem with them is that they can explode or rupture internally if overcharged, or experience a voltage spike above their limit.

The recharge rate is supposed to be just minutes...

I would really worry about recharging batteries in just minutes. Rapid charging and/or discharging of batteries shortens their life span considerably.

Yup, I would love to see a zero carbon economy...

But, but, we are made of carbon. A "zero carbon economy" would not have any living things, including humans... (Note: I am kidding, just having some fun between discussions).

If you ever sat at a stopsign in a hybrid, you'd know what i mean.

I know someone that has one. It is scary being at a stop, at first they had to keep reminding themselves not to keep starting the car. Then again, the car did not have any keys, the "remote" (keyless entry) was just placed in a slot on the dashboard.

Things reduced (not there) in an electric car: Cooling system (unless it has a large electric motor), carburetor or fuel injection, fuel pump, clutch or torque converter, separate alternator and starter, internal engine components like valves, camshafts, crankshafts, valve springs, push-rods and rocker arms (unless overhead cam), timing chain or belt (or in rare cases gear), and so on.

Things added in an electric car: Electric motor (far fewer internal parts), batteries, voltage converter/inverter (very complex), and so on.

 

[scotth]

Since I had two years in electronics in college, maybe I should say something. Capacitors can store quite a bit of energy, and they charge and discharge very fast. They are used in power supplies (to hold power between the AC cycles), and in applications like camera flashes that require lots of energy fast.

The problems with capacitors is that the leek energy internally, very badly. Let one sit for a while and it will discharge over half of its energy. Not a good choice if you want something that can sit for a while. The second problem with them is that they can explode or rupture internally if overcharged, or experience a voltage spike above their limit.



I would really worry about recharging batteries in just minutes. Rapid charging and/or discharging of batteries shortens their life span considerably.

Since I spent eight years as a radar tech have a masters level handle on electronics....

Capacitors may be charged and discharged very rapidly, The actual charge time depends on their capacitance and the actual rate.

Capacitors do not necessarily leak their charge. You can get nailed by cap months after it has been used. Months, at least.

Batteries can explode or rupture internally if overcharged, or experience a voltage spike above their limit. Engines can explode or rupture internally for revving them to high, or not keeping their oil full, not to mention what can happen to a tank of gasoline if it is ill handled. Anything that can store enough energy to propel a car 300+ miles must be handled with proper care.

These aren't batteries. You've just been discussing capacitors for several lines. And the fact that capacitors can handle rapid charge/discharge rates was pointed by none other than you.

Not that much of the above has any bearing, anyway. Obviously, any capacitor with an energy density approaching that of gasoline is completely unlike any capacitor that has ever existed. And it is being designed with purpose of powering a car in mind. By professional engineers. With degrees and experience. From one of the most successful R&D labs in the world.

Will they turn it into a practical product? I don't know. I do know you are attempting to dismiss it as unpractical entirely prematurely.

 

[The Don]

It is perfectly possible to grow commercial biodiesel and other biofuel crops using sustainable methods. Some will even grow well on marginal land.

I understand that there's an issue around capacity and the fact that quite a lot of biodiesel would go into growing crops to make more biodiesel.

A new scientist artcle referred to here by a nuclear energy pressure group and so who's objectivity is suspect, give figures that:

- Existing corn and soyabean crops would only meet 5% of vehicular needs
- reductions in emmissions are low due to the fuel that goes into farming

 

[scotth]

The problem is the calculation to figure how much fuel one can 'grow' is pretty straightforward. I've seen them done numorous times. The percentage varies a bit, but the end conclusion is always the same. We really don't have near enough farmland to make a bid dent in our fuel needs....

 

[Davo]

Electric cars GM

One of the earlier posts referred to GM`s electric car fleet (ex)

Seemed that was actually quite a good vehicle, but never went on sale, only on lease.

Unsure of what truth there is in the vehicle being withdrawn because of fire hazard during battery charging.

Seems as though GM are deliberately trying to put people off electric vehicles. Typical excuses like "people don`t want to buy electric vehicles", even when people wanted to buy them. Offers were put in for the car fleet but GM still chose to scrap them. This case with GM is brought up in a movie/documentary," Who killed the electric car", haven`t seen it yet, but would be interested to see it on DVD release.

 

[ponderingturtle]

One of the earlier posts referred to GM`s electric car fleet (ex)

Seemed that was actually quite a good vehicle, but never went on sale, only on lease.

Unsure of what truth there is in the vehicle being withdrawn because of fire hazard during battery charging.

Seems as though GM are deliberately trying to put people off electric vehicles. Typical excuses like "people don`t want to buy electric vehicles", even when people wanted to buy them. Offers were put in for the car fleet but GM still chose to scrap them. This case with GM is brought up in a movie/documentary," Who killed the electric car", haven`t seen it yet, but would be interested to see it on DVD release.

see this thread for a discussion of the movie, and why it made sense for GM to not sell the cars.