Dyslexic drivers slow to react, claim boffins

[CFLarsen]

No, it's not. Dyslexics actually generally perform better than average at pattern recognition. As I've already said, the way I remember how to type words and dial phone numbers is pattern recognition. My passwords are just jumbles of letters, numbers, and symbols (very secure that way) and instead of memorizing the sequence of characters I just remember the pattern they make on the keyboard. It's exactly as easy for me to remember that as it is to remember any other password.

Read what I write, shanek: Letters are patterns - that's part of what you can't recognize. That you have learned yourself how to cope with your handicap is quite another issue.

Yes, I can. It's just the sequencing that gets messed up. I'll remind you of what you said:

Again, it's not the same thing to a dyslexic.

When you speak of "a dyslexic", do you speak about yourself or in general? You seem to swap between those two.

Whatever.

No, not "whatever". I know it annoys you to no end to acknowledge that somebody is better at something than you are. You can't merely brush uncomfortable facts away.

Right. The word of someone who isn't dyslexic and has no education or experience in people with learning disabilities is right, and someone who is dyslexic, has had to help out a wife with dyslexia, a son with learning disabilities, and who has studied the issue for 15 years is wrong.

Nowhere have I claimed to be an expert on dyslexia. However, I am referring to the experts. And they say you are wrong.

No, it isn't. It doesn't affect any physical functions. Not motor control, not reaction time, nothing.

Then it's a neurological disorder, not a physical disorder. Duh.

Physical, as opposed to psychological. Your brain malfunctions, shanek, but that doesn't mean you're crazy (well, in this case). And the reason why it malfunctions is because of physical changes.

 

[shanek]

No, not "whatever".

Yes, whatever. You claimed to be able to do something better than me while knowing absolutely nothing of my skills or experience in that area. So don't make it look like I'm the one assuming that I'm better at something than others.

Physical, as opposed to psychological.

Well, if you get to define the terms...The real experts in the real world differentiate between physical disorders (which affect one's physical body) and neurological disorders (which affect one's brain). And in the context of this discussion, it's clear that it is this distinction and not yours that is being referred to.

But, I guess, anything to avoid having to admit that you're wrong, eh, pseudo-skeptic?

 

[Jocko]

I take it you're not familiar with the racing format of rally.

I haven't memorized the rules to soccer either, but I still know it's boring.

BTW, actually I do know something about rally racing thanks to the healing magic of video games. I take it you're not familiar with humor.

 

[AWPrime]

No, it isn't. Not to a dyslexic.

Then I question the serverity of your dyslexia.

Because I and several other dyslexic that I know do suffer from these problems.

No, it's not. Dyslexics actually generally perform better than average at pattern recognition.

No, we actualy preform better at spacial thinking.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes, whatever. You claimed to be able to do something better than me while knowing absolutely nothing of my skills or experience in that area. So don't make it look like I'm the one assuming that I'm better at something than others.

You're a programmer, shanek. You work with OS and security.

Well, if you get to define the terms...The real experts in the real world differentiate between physical disorders (which affect one's physical body) and neurological disorders (which affect one's brain). And in the context of this discussion, it's clear that it is this distinction and not yours that is being referred to.

But, I guess, anything to avoid having to admit that you're wrong, eh, pseudo-skeptic?

I've explained what I meant. In your book, that makes me a PSEUDO-SKEPTIC, and quite possibly a LIAR, too. I know your patter.

 

[shanek]

Then I question the serverity of your dyslexia.

Because I and several other dyslexic that I know do suffer from these problems.

I wasn't saying anything about the severity of the condition. I was saying that, to a dyslexic, it's an entirely different thing to try and stick a series of letters together in the correct order than it is to recognize a shape and attach a meaning to it. Claus says they're the same thing.

No, we actualy preform better at spacial thinking.

That, too. But I've seen studies done with dyslexics and basic pattern recognition and the dyslexics performed (IIRC) 20% better than the control group.

 

[shanek]

You're a programmer, shanek. You work with OS and security.

I also work with applications, user interfaces, and graphics. But go on, dismiss all you want. I don't care. Anyone here can see what you are.

 

[shanek]

Let's look at an informational source on dyslexia:

http://www.hornsby.co.uk/Site/WhatIsDyslexia/AdultDyslexia.php

This begins with a list of problem area that dyslexics usually experience. I won't list them here, but notice that not one of them have anything to do with any sort of motor control, reaction time, or any other physical impairment.

But what I really wanted to call attention to was the second list, the things that dyslexics can do very well, even better than non-dyslexics because they've had to develop these skills in order to compensate for their problems:

Patterns of strengths

It is easy to focus on the difficulties someone appears to be having and ignore his or her strengths. It is very important to recognise the strengths of the adult with dyslexia and remember that he or she will have usually developed lots of strategies to compensate for the weaknesses (although these strategies can mask the difficulties to some extent).

Some of the strengths might include:

• Ability to process information holistically
• Good problem-solving skills
• Creative/divergent thinking skills
• Good comprehension skills
• Good oral skills
• Good social/people skills
• Good visual skills
• An awareness of the difficulties and an ability to adopt compensatory strategies

If anything, I would think that many of these would constitute an advantage when driving.

 

[CFLarsen]

I wasn't saying anything about the severity of the condition. I was saying that, to a dyslexic, it's an entirely different thing to try and stick a series of letters together in the correct order than it is to recognize a shape and attach a meaning to it. Claus says they're the same thing.

It is exactly the same thing: Words form symbols on their own - you don't spell your way through a text, you recognize each word as a whole.

If you want to talk about symbols, and how they are perceived, just say the word.

That, too. But I've seen studies done with dyslexics and basic pattern recognition and the dyslexics performed (IIRC) 20% better than the control group.

Can we see them?

 

[CFLarsen]

I also work with applications, user interfaces, and graphics. But go on, dismiss all you want. I don't care. Anyone here can see what you are.

I am not dismissing it. I am pointing to the fact that I specialize in UIs and usability issues. You "working" with them - and graphics, too, gee golly whiz - does not mean you can teach me anything at all.

Face it, shanek: Between you and me, I'm the goddamn expert on this subject, OK?

 

[CFLarsen]

But what I really wanted to call attention to was the second list, the things that dyslexics can do very well, even better than non-dyslexics because they've had to develop these skills in order to compensate for their problems:

This has nothing to do with the actual handicap. It is a result of the subsequently learned skills.

You are confusing the two. They are two different issues.

 

[Thanz]

I think that it is possible that dyslexics may have a slightly slower reaction time to road signs - especially signs that require reading in an unfamiliar environment. Like taking a road trip and finding the right exit. I also don't expect this to make any real difference in driving ability.

I think that the most important part of the article has not been referred to yet. This is how the test was conducted:

Lead boffin Hermundur Sigmundsson subjected 17 volunteers - six of whom were dyslexic - to two distinct tests. The first simulation required guinea pigs to drive along a rural road at between 30 and 50 mph for four minutes; the second involved a 10-minute urban jaunt at lower speeds. Traffic signs were flashed up before the test subjects and scientists measured how quickly they responded by pressing a button marked "now".

This is a little ambiguous. Either the test subjects had to hit a button marked now when a road sign came up, or the scientist tried to measure how fast the reaction time was by the scientist pressing the now button when he noticed the reaction. If it is the former, I don't see how that reflects on driving ability. Very few (if any) road signs require me to hit a button quickly. If it is the latter, it is as much a measure of the scientists reaction times as anything else. They also don't measure if the testing scientists were blinded at all.

Also, note that while the article talks about "20 to 30%", the actual reaction time difference is one to two tenths of a second. To a road sign, not an emergency situation.

In short, it seems to be a poorly designed test, and the results don't seem to mean anything at all. Certainly not that dyslexics behind the wheel are impaired as if they had been drinking, which is what is implied.

 

[AWPrime]

I wasn't saying anything about the severity of the condition. I was saying that, to a dyslexic, it's an entirely different thing to try and stick a series of letters together in the correct order than it is to recognize a shape and attach a meaning to it. Claus says they're the same thing.

Well there is one difference that I will admit: the lack of grammer.




ps. At what age were you diagnosed? I was diagnosed around age of 4 yo.

 

[shanek]

(Note to Claus: You are a hateful, despicable person and I will not be responding to any more of your posts in this thread. I refuse to take your personal abuse.)

I think that it is possible that dyslexics may have a slightly slower reaction time to road signs - especially signs that require reading in an unfamiliar environment. Like taking a road trip and finding the right exit. I also don't expect this to make any real difference in driving ability.

It doesn't. Yes, I miss exits; I get the exit number wrong or something and have to turn around and go back. But as you said, that doesn't have the first thing to do with driving abilities or how safely someone drives.

 

[shanek]

ps. At what age were you diagnosed? I was diagnosed around age of 4 yo.

I wasn't diagnosed as a child because my pathetic government school insisted that someone couldn't have a high IQ and have a learning disability. So I suffered through school not knowing why I had these problems and being left entirely on my own to come up with ways around them. Many of which worked, many of which didn't because my teachers said I wasn't doing it the "right" way.

In college, I dated a girl who was majoring in this, and she said I had classic patterns of dyslexia and urged me to get tested. Long story short, I was diagnosed at 21.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh, there's an interesting link off of the page I cited above:

http://www.bda-dyslexia.org.uk/main/information/adults/a03check.asp

They say "Nine or more YES responses on the questionnaire, as a whole is therefore a powerful indicator of a difficulty." I answered yes to 14.

 

[CFLarsen]

(Note to Claus: You are a hateful, despicable person and I will not be responding to any more of your posts in this thread. I refuse to take your personal abuse.)

"Personal abuse"?? I am pointing out that you are demonstrably wrong on dyslexic issues, as well as being less experienced in usability matters than me, and you call that "personal abuse"? I am a "hateful, despicable person" because of that?

It doesn't. Yes, I miss exits; I get the exit number wrong or something and have to turn around and go back. But as you said, that doesn't have the first thing to do with driving abilities or how safely someone drives.

Nope. But it does mean that your brain does not process the information quite the same way as the brains of normal people do.

Which proves my point exactly.

 

[AWPrime]

I wasn't diagnosed as a child because my pathetic government school insisted that someone couldn't have a high IQ and have a learning disability. So I suffered through school not knowing why I had these problems and being left entirely on my own to come up with ways around them.

Wow that s#cks.

And it is weird, I went to a public school myself and they noticed it immediately (from my speech and writing). So I spend only one or two years before moving into a special school which was perfectly equipped to help.

I am still very grateful for those teachers.


ps. I got 16

 

[Thanz]

I am pointing out that you are demonstrably wrong on dyslexic issues, as well as being less experienced in usability matters than me,

Well, you really have done nothing of the sort. You have not shown shanek to be "demostrably wrong" and all you have done is assert that you are more experienced in usability matters. There has been no actual comparison of the relevant experiences, and further, your experience does not seem to make you an expert on dyslexia in any way, shape or form. In short, I would take the opinion of someone personally involved with a particular disorder over the opinion of someone who seems to have only a basic awareness of the disorder, but may work in a marginally related field.

Nope. But it does mean that your brain does not process the information quite the same way as the brains of normal people do.

Which proves my point exactly.

Not quite. I don't think that he disputed that his brain processes letters and numbers differently. He disputed that this means he processes all symbols and patterns differently.

 

[AWPrime]

An interresting article about some of the brain processes involved.



http://www.dyslexia.org/corpus.shtml

 

[AWPrime]

What causes dyslexia?

Well well found another piece of interresting text on the same website.

The two most important contributers to dyslexia are an underutilized left-hemisphere, and an out-of-whack central bridge of tissue in the brain, called the corpus callosum. (The bibliography contains technical details from some of the brain-scan research which has documented these two problems.) But why does it matter which side of the brain you use? Because the left-hemisphere is programmed to do the things you need for reading and the right is not.

The left can:

* match a letter with its sound
* handle information that comes into your brain in strings, like the sounds in a word-one letter after the other, rather than like a picture where you see it all at once,
* separate a word into its individual sounds and
* understand grammar and syntax.

The right hemisphere is different. It deals in areas and space and patterns. It doesn't understand parts of speech, or keep track of letter-order in spelling. It "reads" a word as a line drawing that it has been taught has a meaning, -- a sketch, not a line up of sounds.

http://www.dyslexia.org/what_causes.shtml