Merged Due process in the US

[dirtywick]

it rarely pans out to give the benefit of the doubt to the trump admin. particularly when it comes to immigrants

 

[Hercules56]

He still is entitled to due process. Which this administration is denying him.

And if he was a gang member, why Photoshop supposed gang tattoos onto his hands?

The tatoos are not Photoshop, just the "MS13".

 

[stanfr]

The tatoos are not Photoshop, just the "MS13".

And that illustrates my point, exactly! Probably half of the people (including myself!) saw the story about "trump shares phottoshopped/faked images of tattoos" and immediately jumped to the conclusion that the tattoos were faked. Which would have been an outrageous, completely insane thing to do, even for trump! But of course that was not the case, they added the 'decoding' to supposedly make it clear what the symbols represented. Still pretty stupid, but not worthy of the frothing-at-the-mouth (and I plead guilty) reaction to the initial claim. I don't like being misled by anyone, right, left, or from Planet X. Just give me facts, thank you.

 

[Hercules56]

Abrego Garcia denied being a member of the gang, but two judges, in separate rulings, concluded that he was, based on confidential information provided to the court. He was shielded from deportation to El Salvador because he said that he would be targeted by MS-13's gangland rivals.

Does Kilmar Abrego Garcia have 'MS-13' tattooed on his hand? What we know

President Trump claimed that Abrego Garcia's tattoos marked him as an MS-13 member, though critics said there was no relation.

www.newsweek.com

 

[dirtywick]

well, not exactly though. the "decoding" was the same color and tint as the ink of the tattoos and kind of small and weird looking. why is that? and keep in mind, this is the same guy that sharpie drew on a hurricane map. you'd think that would be crazy, this is less crazy than that.

 

[stanfr]

Gang member.

Is she? Shall we use our emotions to judge whether she is or not? I mean, that is what skeptics do, right?
I've seen (as a public defender and criminal defense attorney) kids younger than that in detention after brutally murdering someone.

 

[stanfr]

well, not exactly though. the "decoding" was the same color and tint as the ink of the tattoos and kind of small and weird looking. why is that? and keep in mind, this is the same guy that sharpie drew on a hurricane map. you'd think that would be crazy, this is less crazy than that.

fair point. (and not a sharpie!)

 

[Resume]

Is she? Shall we use our emotions to judge whether she is or not?

I was being a smart ass. But you go ahead.

ETA: Because I think the current corrupt administration is ginning up all kinds of ◊◊◊◊.

 

[Aridas]

My only issue was with people who supposedly are open-minded and consider evidence without bias saying he obviously doesn't have ties to a gang, I don't think the allegations are ludicrous, but maybe have a hearing on it or something, like I dunno--due process??

There are a couple issues being touched on here, really. That he should have proper due process seems to be an easy point of agreement, so lets move on to the allegations.

First of all, it's entirely possible that the guy has ties of some kind to a gang. Just like pretty much any random stranger could have ties of some kind to a gang, for all we know. It's also something of a red herring. The guy married, had a job that filled a bunch of time, and has special needs kids to take care of. It's likely that even if he had some ties to a gang in the past, he's effectively turned over a new leaf. Having ties to a gang isn't criminal. Doing crimes, especially as part of gang activities, is criminal. Absent some case for prosecutable criminal behavior, it's pretty much irrelevant. Also utterly hypocritical for the people who ushered Kavanaugh into the Supreme Court and keep opportunistically invoking arguments that would also apply here to defend Republicans.

Second, well, the evidence that has been relied upon to make their case at every stage has been both very flimsy and pretty much screams out motivated logic as they try to rationalize and justify why due process is totally fine to ignore. When it comes to the knuckle tattoos, the process in play sure looks exactly like how CTs are spawned. It's potentially plausible absent more direct knowledge, certainly, but the process to get to the conclusion sure looks more like they're starting with the conclusion and trying to find some way to make it sound more plausible, rather than following the evidence.

 

[stanfr]

There are a couple issues being touched on here, really. That he should have proper due process seems to be an easy point of agreement, so lets move on to the allegations.

First of all, it's entirely possible that the guy has ties of some kind to a gang. Just like pretty much any random stranger could have ties of some kind to a gang, for all we know. It's also something of a red herring. The guy married, had a job that filled a bunch of time, and has special needs kids to take care of. It's likely that even if he had some ties to a gang in the past, he's effectively turned over a new leaf. Having ties to a gang isn't criminal.
Doing crimes, especially as part of gang activities, is criminaAbsent some case for prosecutable criminal behavior, it's pretty much irrelevant. Also utterly hypocritical for the people who ushered Kavanaugh into the Supreme Court and keep opportunistically invoking arguments that would also apply here to defend Republicans.

Second, well, the evidence that has been relied upon to make their case at every stage has been both very flimsy and pretty much screams out motivated logic as they try to rationalize and justify why due process is totally fine to ignore. When it comes to the knuckle tattoos, the process in play sure looks exactly like how CTs are spawned. It's potentially plausible absent more direct knowledge, certainly, but the process to get to the conclusion sure looks more like they're starting with the conclusion and trying to find some way to make it sound more plausible, rather than following the evidence.

I don't take issue with any of that. You made some good points. I especially agree with your argument that I highlighted. Particularly given all the facts in his favor (like his employer speaking out for him etc) unless there is evidence of a specific crime I would agree that any possible tie to a gang is not as important. I don't know every nuance of immigration law so I'd have to defer to someone who is an expert to say whether gang affiliation per se is something they could use to deport someone in a similar situation. As someone pointed out earlier I believe, it could be used as a justification to keep someone from coming into the country, but given that he was already protected in the past from being deported, that no longer applies.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Garcia could be the late, great Alphonse Capone combined with Eddy "Scissorhands" Kruger and Jack the Ripper, with a touch of child-molester thrown in. But he still needs to be returned to the USA to receive proper justice through legal channels. Only after he is properly and lawfully convicted in a US court of law does his status as a resident and any proven gang membership come into the picture. If the Trump goons had done that first, Garcia probably wouldn't even have made the news.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"We cannot give everyone a trial," says Donald.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonald Trump
I'm doing what I was elected to do, remove criminals from our Country, but the Courts don't seem to want me to do that. My team is fantastic, doing an incredible job, however, they are being stymied at every turn by even the U.S. Supreme Court, which I have such great respect for, but which seemingly doesn't want me to send violent criminals and terrorists back to Venezuela, or any other Country, for that matter People that came here illegally! The Courts are intimidated by the Radical Left who are, "playing the Ref." Great Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito correctly wants to dissolve the pause on deportations. He is right on this! If we don't get these criminals out of our Country, we are not going to have a Country any longer. We cannot give everyone a trial, because to do so would take, without exaggeration, 200 years. We would need hundreds of thousands of trials for the hundreds of thousands of Illegals we are sending out of the Country. Such a thing is not possible to do. What a ridiculous situation we are in. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!

 

[I Am The Scum]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that (definitely absurd). But note that you didn't even take the time even understand the alleged coding--it's not a letter, its a *number*--the number "1" not a letter.

But that's worse. You see how that's worse, right?

I'd recommend you take some time to question if and how the facts presented actually point to the presented conclusion (even a little bit). Is it more likely than not that the hand tattoo is a coded message? What is it about a Chicago Bulls cap that makes it "suspicious?"

As Aridas pointed out, these are the types of mistakes that fuel conspiracy theories. If you think a cap is "suspicious," then "pull it" must have been evidence that it was a planned demolition, right?

 

[Norman Alexander]

"We cannot give everyone a trial," says Donald.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonald Trump
I'm doing what I was elected to do, remove criminals from our Country, but the Courts don't seem to want me to do that. My team is fantastic, doing an incredible job, however, they are being stymied at every turn by even the U.S. Supreme Court, which I have such great respect for, but which seemingly doesn't want me to send violent criminals and terrorists back to Venezuela, or any other Country, for that matter People that came here illegally! The Courts are intimidated by the Radical Left who are, "playing the Ref." Great Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito correctly wants to dissolve the pause on deportations. He is right on this! If we don't get these criminals out of our Country, we are not going to have a Country any longer. We cannot give everyone a trial, because to do so would take, without exaggeration, 200 years. We would need hundreds of thousands of trials for the hundreds of thousands of Illegals we are sending out of the Country. Such a thing is not possible to do. What a ridiculous situation we are in. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!

A trial is not a privilege, it's a constitutional right. Depriving people of their rights is a crime in itself. Therefore Trump is recommending large-scale criming at a top level to "deal" with his perceived grievances.

And this after he was convicted on 34 counts of serious crimes himself, in court, but got extraordinary free-to-go sentences for them all.

It would appear to an outsider that Trump's "problem" is courts and the law, not criminals. What an obnoxious arsehole.

 

[stanfr]

Garcia could be the late, great Alphonse Capone combined with Eddy "Scissorhands" Kruger and Jack the Ripper, with a touch of child-molester thrown in. But he still needs to be returned to the USA to receive proper justice through legal channels. Only after he is properly and lawfully convicted in a US court of law does his status as a resident and any proven gang membership come into the picture. If the Trump goons had done that first, Garcia probably wouldn't even have made the news.

Well, assuming the Alien Enemies Act applies (and the Supreme Court says it can be used) then 'conviction' is irrelevant. But the Supreme Court also said he has the right to defend the allegations, and that hasn't been accorded to him--hence the whole due process argument.
Here's an interesting summary (from 2019) of how allegations of gang membership can effect status. Especially interesting is the distinction between gang "membership'" and "affiliation"--with the former requiring a greater degree of evidence to be presented.
Gangs and Immigration Status

 

[Resume]

But that's worse. You see how that's worse, right?

I'd recommend you take some time to question if and how the facts presented actually point to the presented conclusion (even a little bit). Is it more likely than not that the hand tattoo is a coded message?
What is it about a Chicago Bulls cap that makes it "suspicious?"
As Aridas pointed out, these are the types of mistakes that fuel conspiracy theories. If you think a cap is "suspicious," then "pull it" must have been evidence that it was a planned demolition, right?

I have one, and a hoodie.

Ohh ◊◊◊◊!! I'm headed to El Salvador.

 

[stanfr]

A trial is not a privilege, it's a constitutional right. Depriving people of their rights is a crime in itself. Therefore Trump is recommending large-scale criming at a top level to "deal" with his perceived grievances.

And this after he was convicted on 34 counts of serious crimes himself, in court, but got extraordinary free-to-go sentences for them all.

It would appear to an outsider that Trump's "problem" is courts and the law, not criminals. What an obnoxious arsehole.

Sigh, I really, really hate to defend the despicable monster Trump here, but at least as far as that isolated statement is at issue, he is right, there is NO REQUIREMENT FOR A TRIAL. But he is exaggerating (of course) what should be done--which is a basic requirement of due process--to give anyone accused a chance to defend themselves in front of a court or judge. You can't just detain someone and ship them off to a prison camp without giving them the right to be heard and the allegation to be adjudicated on the evidence. This does not by necessity equate to a trial, however.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Well, assuming the Alien Enemies Act applies (and the Supreme Court says it can be used) then 'conviction' is irrelevant. But the Supreme Court also said he has the right to defend the allegations, and that hasn't been accorded to him--hence the whole due process argument.

Uh, well, duh!

Here's an interesting summary (from 2019) of how allegations of gang membership can effect status. Especially interesting is the distinction between gang "membership'" and "affiliation"--with the former requiring a greater degree of evidence to be presented.
Gangs and Immigration Status

All well and good. So bring him back, try and convict him properly including any gang evidence. And if he is genuinely guilty then go from there. And I won't argue his gang situation here because there has been no proper show of evidence for or against...yet. Just a bunch of Trothe Sential posts by Trump flunkies. Which is NOT a valid legal process.

 

[stanfr]

But that's worse. You see how that's worse, right?

I'd recommend you take some time to question if and how the facts presented actually point to the presented conclusion (even a little bit). Is it more likely than not that the hand tattoo is a coded message? What is it about a Chicago Bulls cap that makes it "suspicious?"

As Aridas pointed out, these are the types of mistakes that fuel conspiracy theories. If you think a cap is "suspicious," then "pull it" must have been evidence that it was a planned demolition, right?

Very simple--the allegation was that the Chicago Bulls cap was an indication that he was "an M-13 member in good standing" (the Bulls horns supposedly represent the devil's horns) According to what Ive read, gang members commonly wear certain attire to indicate their membership. An ICE agent made that claim. Do I think it is convincing? No...certainly not in isolation. But neither you nor I have any expertise in the subject of El Salvadoran gangs and their insignia (do you??) so it is not in any way fueling a CT to report what a person who has expertise stated as an allegation. Let them present the evidence--just as I would allow *anyone* to present evidence of their theory, and then judge on the merits. Most CTs fall apart upon close inspection. But there are degrees of absurdity.

 

[stanfr]

Uh, well, duh!

All well and good. So bring him back,
try and convicthim properly including any gang evidence. And if he is genuinely guilty then go from there. And I won't argue his gang situation here because there has been no proper show of evidence for or against...yet. Just a bunch of Trothe Sential posts by Trump flunkies. Which is NOT a valid legal process.

You still aren't getting it. There is NO need for TRIAL or CONVICTION under the constitution or federal law. Capiche?