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Dualism is intuitive

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
19,141
In his latest "Skeptic" column in Scientific American, Shermer says:
The reason dualism is intuitive is that the brain does not perceive itself and so ascribes mental activity to a separate source. Hallucinations of preternatural beings (ghosts, angels, aliens) are sensed as real entities, out-of-body and near-death experiences are perceived as external events, and the pattern of information that is our memories, personaltiy, and "self" is sensed as a soul.
An interesting insight. Sounds like what you'd expect from evolution.

~~ Paul
 
Why would he use "sensed" to mean "thought of?"
Is this some crazy Orwellian mind-game? :P
 
The reason dualism is intuitive is that the brain does not perceive itself and so ascribes mental activity to a separate source. Hallucinations of preternatural beings (ghosts, angels, aliens) are sensed as real entities, out-of-body and near-death experiences are perceived as external events, and the pattern of information that is our memories, personaltiy, and "self" is sensed as a soul.
And I thought you guys completely rejected the possibility of solipsism on the premise that anything contravening the will must be an external phenomenon.

It's my belief that debates about ontological problems such as the dualism quandary are useless because we'll never have sufficient information to come to any sort of scientifically testable conclusions for them.
 
I think you're right, Batman.

Riverlethe said:
Why would he use "sensed" to mean "thought of?"
Is this some crazy Orwellian mind-game?
No, just the second definition of sense:

1 a : to perceive by the senses b : to be or become conscious of *sense danger*
2 : GRASP, COMPREHEND
3 : to detect automatically especially in response to a physical stimulus (as light or movement)

Of course, I can't really speak for him. :D

~~ Paul
 
Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

The reason dualism is intuitive is that the brain does not perceive itself and so ascribes mental activity to a separate source

To me, 'intuitive' refers to something you know without knowing how you know it. When it comes right down to it, the vast majority of our perceptions could be said to be intuitive in this sense; they are sums of outputs from countless cognitive subprocesses, the inner workings of which are unknown to us. Their results are estimates, but overall quite reliable. Truly amazing is the speed at which these mysterious internal genies work, and how little information they require to get started.

Sometimes we do know how we know something, especially when that knowledge comes to us from an external source. For instance, we often learn a difficult skill by rigidly following a set of instructions provided to us by someone else. At first, we may not understand much about what we are doing, or why the rules say we should do a certain thing. Considerable effort may be required to override what our internal genies tell us when it conflicts with the rules. Gradually, what was external becomes internal; what was a sequence of careful, deliberate steps is integrated into a seamless flow; rules once recited without comprehension are replaced with understanding which cannot be articulated.

Infants are not capable of percieving subtle patterns in the behavior of other humans. This is an aquired ability; in fact, it is learned. The earliest observations made with regard to patterns our own behavior are therefore made by others, and taught to us, at a stage in our development when we are extremely malleable. Lesson number one, "You are a self", is absorbed and integrated before we even master language.

The self is an internalized third-person perspective.

Having said all that, I do not think the idea of a self can be entirely explained as a pedagogy, and I don't agree with Shermer that it's just a dumb mistake on the part of the brain, either. The 'self' is indispensible as a tool for understanding and interacting with other humans. I believe that the human brain supports this useful fiction by explicit design, an underlying assumption being that the initial configuration will be performed by other humans.


Originally posted by Batman Jr.

It's my belief that debates about ontological problems such as the dualism quandary are useless because we'll never have sufficient information to come to any sort of scientifically testable conclusions for them.
I think it's worse than that. It isn't merely a matter of insufficient information that prevents us from testing any claim for dualism scientifically; untestability is part of its definition.
 
A simple, testable demonstration is possible.

When we can reliably manipulate people's brains to make them think differently, believe differently, perceive differently, and turn it on/off like a switch, the point of what 'soul' is will be moot. When we can plugged in and *changed*, according to preferences in a computer program to modify our personalities, will there be any doubt what "you" are made of?

Arguably, we already have a vast collection of evidence that whatever the 'soul' is, it exists in that meat in your skull, and depends on it for every kind of thought, memory and perception. Injuries, diseases, drugs and surgeries have provided massive amounts of information over the centuries of dedicated study.

Also arguably, some among us will claim the device renders the 'victim' a soulless p-zombie. Simply destroying the 'soul' and making the brain run a simulation of consciousness.
 
riverlethe said:

Still, I can't say I've ever "sensed" a soul. What do people mean by this?
Your soul is nothing more than the personal identiy you ascribe to yourself. It's that part of you which is alive and conscious and knows it. Isn't it possible to conceive of yourself separate from your body? For example when you dream and are unaware that your physical body exists? This is your soul.
 
Iacchus said:
For example when you dream and are unaware that your physical body exists? This is your soul.

So when we sleep and don't dream we've lost our souls?!?!? :D
 
Ratman_tf said:

So when we sleep and don't dream we've lost our souls?!?!? :D
No, I would suggest you were unconscious. Albeit quite often when we're dreaming we aren't the least bit aware of it when we wake up. Do you know how difficult it is for some people to recall their dreams? So how do we know for certain that we aren't dreaming most of the time? I know that when I dream it's almost all the time, and I'm fully well aware of it, even in my dreams.
 
Iacchus said:
Your soul is nothing more than the personal identiy you ascribe to yourself. It's that part of you which is alive and conscious and knows it. Isn't it possible to conceive of yourself separate from your body? For example when you dream and are unaware that your physical body exists? This is your soul.
Why make things so complicated? You have various levels of body awareness when you sleep and dream, sometimes less, sometimes more. Is your soul fading in and out?

When I dream I have to go to the bathroom and I wake up having to go, what's that? My urination semi-soul?

~~ Paul
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
In his latest "Skeptic" column in Scientific American, Shermer says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason dualism is intuitive is that the brain does not perceive itself and so ascribes mental activity to a separate source. Hallucinations of preternatural beings (ghosts, angels, aliens) are sensed as real entities, out-of-body and near-death experiences are perceived as external events, and the pattern of information that is our memories, personaltiy, and "self" is sensed as a soul.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


An interesting insight. Sounds like what you'd expect from evolution.

I cannot understand what he's saying. If the self cannot perceive itself, nor any other selves, then I agree that this leads to dualism. But surely there would then be some justification for subscribing to dualism? Moreover, the fact that the self has its source in the brain does not contradict dualism, not even substance dualism. And soul is just a self which survives the body. So soul is the self and therefore one should not whine about the fact that the self senses itself.

You see?? This is the sort of meaningless sh!t you read in Skeptic books.
 
Originally posted by Interesting Ian

This is the sort of meaningless sh!t you read in Skeptic books.
Good thing we have philosophy books we can turn to for clarity.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:

When I dream I have to go to the bathroom and I wake up having to go, what's that? My urination semi-soul?

~~ Paul
It shows that you are still attached to your body which, for the most part you are unaware of while dreaming.

Hey, did you know I had a dream the other night about having to urinate into a urinal which looked like a sink? ... Following this other person who had to do the same thing? Now what I want to know is, who was this other guy that had to urinate before me? :D
 
Ian said:
I cannot understand what he's saying. If the self cannot perceive itself, nor any other selves, then I agree that this leads to dualism. But surely there would then be some justification for subscribing to dualism? Moreover, the fact that the self has its source in the brain does not contradict dualism, not even substance dualism. And soul is just a self which survives the body. So soul is the self and therefore one should not whine about the fact that the self senses itself.
Ditto. I have no idea what you just said.

You see?? This is the sort of meaningless sh!t you read in Skeptic books.
It was in Scientific American.

~~ Paul
 
evildave said:
A simple, testable demonstration is possible.

When we can reliably manipulate people's brains to make them think differently, believe differently, perceive differently, and turn it on/off like a switch, the point of what 'soul' is will be moot. When we can plugged in and *changed*, according to preferences in a computer program to modify our personalities, will there be any doubt what "you" are made of?

Arguably, we already have a vast collection of evidence that whatever the 'soul' is, it exists in that meat in your skull, and depends on it for every kind of thought, memory and perception. Injuries, diseases, drugs and surgeries have provided massive amounts of information over the centuries of dedicated study.

Also arguably, some among us will claim the device renders the 'victim' a soulless p-zombie. Simply destroying the 'soul' and making the brain run a simulation of consciousness.
A demonstration such as the one you describe would merely show that perception could be affected by brain activity, not that brain activity is causing the actual perceiving (shooting someone will influence how his/her body will function, but it nonetheless would be considered ridiculous to say that shooting the person caused the person's body to come into being in the first place). Besides, the only viable way to perform this test would be to do it on yourself, because it's possible that some other people or even all other people are p-zombies, and as we know, devising conclusions with data from one person is far from being guaranteed accurate.
 
Originally posted by evildave
A simple, testable demonstration is possible.

When we can reliably manipulate people's brains to make them think differently, believe differently, perceive differently, and turn it on/off like a switch, the point of what 'soul' is will be moot. When we can plugged in and *changed*, according to preferences in a computer program to modify our personalities, will there be any doubt what "you" are made of?


◊◊◊◊ around with any device of assumed intelligence and one of the predictable results is that you change the dynamics/capabilities of that device, be it computer or human brain.
Arguably the human brain can be enhanced

Arguably, we already have a vast collection of evidence that whatever the 'soul' is, it exists in that meat in your skull, and depends on it for every kind of thought, memory and perception. Injuries, diseases, drugs and surgeries have provided massive amounts of information over the centuries of dedicated study.

It's all intelligent meat huh?
Meat workers and 'whatever the 'soul' is are not often integrated as a wokable reality.
Arguably, the soul is the intelligence which uses the human brain, and not necessarily that alone, for the purpose of experience.
Arguably, the house of the soul is the total human body, including the A-hole.
The intelligence in the meatworks.


Also arguably, some among us will claim the device renders the 'victim' a soulless p-zombie. Simply destroying the 'soul' and making the brain run a simulation of consciousness.


Ah - consciousness! Might have nothing to do with the brain...other than it can use the brain/body for its own purposes...If 'what is soul?' is still an unknown certainty, then how can one argue that the soul is destroyable?

Arguably, God never existed but the Universe 'became' from some accident (of what I don't pretend to guess) and FROM this accident, Intelligence was brought into 'beingness' through a series of evolutionary modifications which enabled it to become conscious of itself and of it's predicament.
Thus God is Borne.
So their may never have been a God to 'begin' with, but there is NOW.

At least....I 'intuit'
;)
 
So, you would go with the 'soul driver' option?

It appears to me that the soul is a function of the brain, and is affected by changes to the brain just as any complex system is affected by changes to it.

Parsimony doesn't allow me to keep adding surplus things like a 'soul' to what appears to be a reasonable explanation for how the system works. I see it 'you' and 'me' as a simulation that is integral to that brain, and yes the interconnections with its body and sensory organs. Within the simulation, the illusion of self and sensory input and transparent integration of will to operate motor functions is complete.

You may as well tell me that electrons are actually sentient little demons, and integrated circuits are cities for them to live in. If you push too many demons into a city, they rebel and destroy it.

The hard question is what is left over after you account for all the behavior and perception and memory and habits that the brain maintains and operates? I don't see anything. Can you account for something that the brain doesn't do, that would never be affected by a particular injury drugging or poisoning of one sort or another?
 

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