Dowsing Test

[Pinske]

A friend of mine has always spoken about he can water witch, or "Dowse" so, I told him vaguely about the million dollar challenge. Although I couldn't remember the name of this place, I decided to keep an eye open in case I ever found it again.

Well, here I am, the other night I stumbled upon it and called him up. He told me he'd be willing to do it. So, after reading through the form, rules, and such, I've decided to set up a double-blind test.

I figure I'll get a 4-gallon bottle of water buried in a 20ft-20ft area would be sufficient. To make sure he can't just look for the dug up spot, I'm going to use either a hoe or a rake to rip up all the soil. I know double blind means the tester doesn't even know what the answer is, but I'll just be standing on the side lines with a shoble. Is this a sufficient test? I want to make the test as similar to a test that JREF would approve, as possible.

If he manages to find this bottle on his first try, then I'll make the area bigger, and the water smaller. If he finds it 3 times in a row, I'll help him fill out his forms, and get him publicity.

 

[JWideman]

Why dig? Take 10 manila envelopes, place a picture in one while he watches, and lay them down on a table. Let him do his dowsing to find the picture, verifying for him that he can do this. Then repeat this, only shuffle the envelopes so that neither he nor you know which one the picture is in.

 

[jimtron]

IIRC there was a preliminary JREF test where cups of water were set on a floor in a hallway; some with water, some empty. They had the dowser first to it with no covers on the cups (the dowser could clearly see which cups were filled with water), to make sure the dowsing rods were "working" at that place and time. Then the cups were switched around and covered, and the dowser tried again--guess what happened?

The trial run is a great idea to help avoid excuses ("there's interference at this location" etc).

 

[blutoski]

A friend of mine has always spoken about he can water witch, or "Dowse" so, I told him vaguely about the million dollar challenge. Although I couldn't remember the name of this place, I decided to keep an eye open in case I ever found it again.

Well, here I am, the other night I stumbled upon it and called him up. He told me he'd be willing to do it. So, after reading through the form, rules, and such, I've decided to set up a double-blind test.

I figure I'll get a 4-gallon bottle of water buried in a 20ft-20ft area would be sufficient. To make sure he can't just look for the dug up spot, I'm going to use either a hoe or a rake to rip up all the soil. I know double blind means the tester doesn't even know what the answer is, but I'll just be standing on the side lines with a shoble. Is this a sufficient test? I want to make the test as similar to a test that JREF would approve, as possible.

If he manages to find this bottle on his first try, then I'll make the area bigger, and the water smaller. If he finds it 3 times in a row, I'll help him fill out his forms, and get him publicity.

I do recommend a slightly different protocol:

• give the dowser a choice of specific target locations, instead of asking him to dowse around a huge area.
  
  The reason is to avoid quibbling over what constitutes a 'hit'. Is it a hit if he's 1 foot off? 2 feet off? 3 feet off? 10 feet off?
  
• Also get him to go through it unblinded in advance. He may discover that he can't detect a jug of water. Maye it has to be flowing. &c.
  
• goes without saying: get him to verify that the test actually tests what he believes he can do

 

[XBoxWarrior]

I figure I'll get a 4-gallon bottle of water buried in a 20ft-20ft area would be sufficient. To make sure he can't just look for the dug up spot, I'm going to use either a hoe or a rake to rip up all the soil.

Sounds like you have heaps of energy lad. Perhaps you could just spend about an hour reading about dowsing here at the JREF, and do something more constructive with that energy.

Or, you do the digging, and plant some veges?

 

[Pinske]

Wow, speedy replies, and thanks for all the tips. As for the envelopes, it's just water so he says, so that wouldn't prove anything.

I will start him off much smaller though to test things. See how little water he can "Find" first, then start forming harder and harder tests. I called BS on it a long time ago, but he's steady on that he can do it.

I think I'll start small with the cups of water.

 

[Pinske]

Sounds like you have heaps of energy lad. Perhaps you could just spend about an hour reading about dowsing here at the JREF, and do something more constructive with that energy.

Or, you do the digging, and plant some veges?

Ha ha, well, I did grow up on a farm, and doing construction, and doing fire fighting, so hard work has never been an issue. But yes, I've re-thought my plan so that I can do it faster as well.

 

[wardenclyffe]

The test with the cups of water is an excellent start. It's low cost and low effort. Digging up an entire field takes time, energy and money. I'm glad you are starting small. The two of you should have another friend who can help.

As has been recommended before, start out with some cups empty and some full. They are uncovered, so your water witching friend can see which is which. He can then calibrate his abilities to verify that they are working properly. Then, both you and he leave the room. Your other friend now re-arranges the cups and puts covers on them. Then your re-arranging friend leaves the room. You and the water witch return and the witch tells you which is which.

The cups should be identical, and if you use paper cups you should make sure that the lighting in the room does not allow your friend to see through the sides of the cups.

If the water has to be running (and don't offer this to your friend---don't mention it at all---let him bring it up) then you get into much more complicated testing that requires plumbing, etc. Here's a video of James Randi doing a very complicated test of dowsers in Australia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpcFl23dmcQ

Good luck. It sounds like fun.

Ward

 

[roger]

Don't ever give him a weasel way out. As somebody mentioned, with the buried jug you can start to question "how close is close enough", etc. If you end up having to bury jugs, then bury several at fixed locations. Heck, just bury 2, one empty, one full. That way you don't have to obscure where you dug, and you don't have to bury 10 jugs. I assure you he will start failing very quickly, meaning you'll only have to do it a few times before the point is proven. But the most important thing is - no judging! The jug/cup/whatever either has water in it, or not.

 

[Pinske]

I have to say I'm a little curious if it really will work or not. I called BS right away, but his dad found their septic tank using this process. Now, it's obvious that he could have already known where it is, but I've never known either of them to be the type to lie.

I'm still very skeptically, but still interested, with a small bit of me honestly convinced he can.

I'll be sure to keep every one posted on his failure and embarrassment. Or god forbid, he manages to find it.

 

[Plasmadog]

...I know double blind means the tester doesn't even know what the answer is, but I'll just be standing on the side lines with a shoble. Is this a sufficient test?

Double blind means that nobody present during the test knows where the target is. If you want to stand and watch the test then you should get someone else to bury the target so that you don't know where it is. The dowser and the person who buried the target should not both be present at the site at the same time until after the test is complete.

 

[LightinDarkness]

I have to say I'm a little curious if it really will work or not. I called BS right away, but his dad found their septic tank using this process. Now, it's obvious that he could have already known where it is, but I've never known either of them to be the type to lie.

I'm still very skeptically, but still interested, with a small bit of me honestly convinced he can.

I'll be sure to keep every one posted on his failure and embarrassment. Or god forbid, he manages to find it.

The septic tank thing is probably a combination of confirmation bias and subconsciously knowing what above ground signs to look for (ie, there are visual cues that usually help people find that).

If its a fair test (meaning he has no knowledge of where the water is ahead of time and you don't drop any hints on accident), he will fail. Its been proven over and over again that dowsing is woo.

 

[wardenclyffe]

I have to say I'm a little curious if it really will work or not. I called BS right away, but his dad found their septic tank using this process. Now, it's obvious that he could have already known where it is, but I've never known either of them to be the type to lie.

I'm still very skeptically, but still interested, with a small bit of me honestly convinced he can.

I'll be sure to keep every one posted on his failure and embarrassment. Or god forbid, he manages to find it.

Your friend and his dad are probably not lying. They probably really believe they can dowse. They found the septic tank, didn't they? They have convinced themselves. Remember, your test is not designed to catch a liar, it's designed to test the efficacy of dowsing (or your friend's ability to dowse).

Ward

 

[Marcus]

-Dig 6 holes. It shouldn't be hard, they don't have to be big.

-Flip a coin to determine if you will place an empty container, or one containing water in the hole. Mark each hole with a number.

-Do not be present when he dowses. The witness who does observe him should be unaware which contains water. Let him write down which holes contain water, and which do not. Dig them up together.

As was mentioned, make sure he tests his dowsing stick beforehand (open test) to make sure it is working.

If he gets 5 or 6 right, the people here would love to discuss a more rigorous test he should try prior to applying to the challenge.

 

[Pinske]

Double blind means that nobody present during the test knows where the target is. If you want to stand and watch the test then you should get someone else to bury the target so that you don't know where it is. The dowser and the person who buried the target should not both be present at the site at the same time until after the test is complete.

Yes, I know exactly what double blind means, you just read it as if there would be crowd there, all who knew where said item was.

 

[George 152]

The septic tank thing is probably a combination of confirmation bias and subconsciously knowing what above ground signs to look for (ie, there are visual cues that usually help people find that).

If its a fair test (meaning he has no knowledge of where the water is ahead of time and you don't drop any hints on accident), he will fail. Its been proven over and over again that dowsing is woo.

Septic tanks have an air vent.
And since it was on their property he very probably had it cleaned out at some stage

 

[Pinske]

-Dig 6 holes. It shouldn't be hard, they don't have to be big.

-Flip a coin to determine if you will place an empty container, or one containing water in the hole. Mark each hole with a number.

-Do not be present when he dowses. The witness who does observe him should be unaware which contains water. Let him write down which holes contain water, and which do not. Dig them up together.

As was mentioned, make sure he tests his dowsing stick beforehand (open test) to make sure it is working.

If he gets 5 or 6 right, the people here would love to discuss a more rigorous test he should try prior to applying to the challenge.

I'm going to do the cups first, and if he fails at that, he'll probably say it's because he needs a bigger water source. Then I'll move on to the digging, and if he passes that, then we'll see. But, I'm willing to bet I'll just be out digging holes for the fun of it.

 

[Olowkow]

Meh, if he wants the million bucks badly enough, let him dig his own holes.

 

[wardenclyffe]

I'm going to do the cups first, and if he fails at that, he'll probably say it's because he needs a bigger water source. Then I'll move on to the digging, and if he passes that, then we'll see. But, I'm willing to bet I'll just be out digging holes for the fun of it.

This is why you make sure his powers are working by letting him try on the uncovered cups first. When he can see which is which, it should work easily. If his power stops working after you cover the cups, then the size of the water source cannot be the problem. He detected a source of the same size just perfectly when he knew where it was, but then when it was covered.....

Ward

 

[NoZed Avenger]

I'm going to do the cups first, and if he fails at that, he'll probably say it's because he needs a bigger water source. Then I'll move on to the digging, and if he passes that, then we'll see. But, I'm willing to bet I'll just be out digging holes for the fun of it.

You might try water bottles or milk jugs underneath overturned buckets, as well. (IF the buckets can sit flat and not give any "tells." Less labor involved and easier to set up and re-set up, as needed.

As someone pointed out, you should have a good way to randomly decide which, if any, of the containers have water in them. A coin is a good, basic, way to have it selected randomly. That avoids having your friend decide to guess (unconsciously, most likely) at where you'd be more likely to place the full containers.

Good luck.


ETA: Oh, and many dowsers are, I think, completely convinced. The ideomotor effect is unconscious, and can happen with dowsing rods despite a person's best efforts to stay completely steady. You can easily convince yourself something is happening. Combine that with a few lucky hits or some knowledge (even if consciously forgotten) of where something is or is likely to be, and it is easy to see where people can start to believe in it. As others have said, the tests are not to catch a liar, but only to try and test for the ability -- to see if someone may be fooling themselves.