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Doing standup while black: Dave Chappelle's new special

angrysoba said:
Anyway, it was okay. Quite funny in places and also rather sermonizing in places. As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
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Telling funny jokes is hard, but throwing pep rallies isn't. It's a common arc for aging comedians to go from joke tellers to people hunting for claps rather than laughs. It's never a good sign when some older comedian decided it's their role to give sermons on serious issues rather than tell jokes that are funny, though history has shown it's often very lucrative.

Shame to see Chapelle going this route, he was very funny in the past.

ETA: Sad that success is often what seems to lead to comedians ceasing to be funny.
 
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angrysoba said:
Well, I watched it and part of what he was saying pretty much WAS that other minority groups have blown past black people on their way to getting support and recognition, from gay people to trans people. For example, he points about that it’s barely a crime to shoot a black person dead but your career will be destroyed for some homophobic remarks.
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Thankfully no one cares about murders of queer black people because they by definition can not possibly exist.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Telling funny jokes is hard, but throwing pep rallies isn't. It's a common arc for aging comedians to go from joke tellers to people hunting for claps rather than laughs. It's never a good sign when some older comedian decided it's their role to give sermons on serious issues rather than tell jokes that are funny, though history has shown it's often very lucrative.

Shame to see Chapelle going this route, he was very funny in the past.

ETA: Sad that success is often what seems to lead to comedians ceasing to be funny.
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Carlin and Pryor pulled it off, IMO, but not many others. Miss them both in the Trump era.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Has anyone else seen Dave Chapelle's new standup special The Closer? As many of you probably have heard, he caused a kerfuffle by making several jokes about transgenders in the special. He was attacked by twitter, members of the media, and now some Netflix employees are threatening a walkout.

I saw the special recently, and he joked about asians, white people, women, and other groups as much as he did about transgender; but it seems to be the hot button issue these days. I think the outrage has less to do with the contents of the show, and much more to do with the fact that he decided to joke about trans issues at all.

Has anyone else seen it? What did you think?
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I don't think it was his best set on Netflix, but it was damn good. I think it was the story he told at the end, that caused the most offense, as it painted the trans community, at least the on-line one, as a bully. And since they can't debate that, gotta go after the messenger.

The last 20-30 minutes is powerful and raw and feels so real, so they can't ding him for any of that. But call him a transphobe? Easy, effortless and untrue.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
Carlin and Pryor pulled it off, IMO, but not many others. Miss them both in the Trump era.
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I didn't think Carlin pulled it off. I found most of his later stuff kind of tedious. It sounded like an old man ranting.

I haven't seen Chapelle's show, but I will if I can find the time.
 
angrysoba said:
Well, I watched it and part of what he was saying pretty much WAS that other minority groups have blown past black people on their way to getting support and recognition, from gay people to trans people. For example, he points about that it’s barely a crime to shoot a black person dead but your career will be destroyed for some homophobic remarks.
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Two points about that; First of all, it wasn't my suggestion, it was Chapelle's. And secondly, he wasn't comparing blacks directly to whites, he was comparing them to member of the LGBT community, and noting how members of the LGBT community have all sorts of extra protections.

Anyway, it was okay. Quite funny in places and also rather sermonizing in places. As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
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Yeah, this is the classic style popularized by Jon Stewart. There's even an expression for it; a Clown nose on, Clown nose off routine.
 
Leftus said:
I don't think it was his best set on Netflix, but it was damn good. I think it was the story he told at the end, that caused the most offense, as it painted the trans community, at least the on-line one, as a bully. And since they can't debate that, gotta go after the messenger.
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That was only my second time seeing his standup, but I liked it. I'm a bit more familiar with his sketch comedy.

The last 20-30 minutes is powerful and raw and feels so real, so they can't ding him for any of that. But call him a transphobe? Easy, effortless and untrue.
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I'm wondering if the last 20-30 minutes was the closer.
 
Definitely one of his weaker routines, but honestly didn't think any of his recent work compares to his old work. There are flashes but it's just not as good. It is hard to rate, because I rate him against himself.

angrysoba said:
As with many comedians who have a “serious point”, there’s a bit of wanting it both ways. They want to have their opinions taken seriously but retreat to the old “I’m only joking! I’’m a comedian!” When people take it seriously in a way they don’t like. You can’t have it both ways.
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He had a knack for pulling that off in the past. His routine about Elizabeth Smart, and pulled together with how old is 15 really, is perfect. His current comparisons don't land as well comedically, but they are good food for thought. The backlash against his trans material reinforces his points.
 
So I watched about half an hour of Chappelle's show, including the last 20 minutes.


To go deeply into what is so deeply and utterly wrong with the protests against it would really require me to discuss a whole lot of stuff that really belongs over in a thread in social issues and current events.

As for the show in general, it's kind of funny, if you like that sort of thing. I, personally, laughed at some of the jokes, but the constant use of "******" and "bitch" kind of puts me off.
 
The Very Bad Wizards talked about this special on their podcast.

They are big fans of Chappelle so they were inclined to be supportive of him.

That said, I think they also end with the idea that Chappelle is something of a ranting reactionary. They point to the fact that people in their daughter's generation pretty much accept trans people with none of this "Ohh...b...b...but what if the sky is falling!?!?!" They also point out that if we are charitable we can see that Chappelle is frustrated that black people apparently don't seem to have the same acceptance as trans people and gay people before them.

https://www.verybadwizards.com/223

Chappelle could be right about that, but honestly if that is his problem then his target really should not be trans people. And yeah, he had a trans comedian friend and he tells a touching story, but honestly that comes across as a little manipulative. I mean, if a comedia were to walk around telling jokes using the n-word and saying that there used to be good ones (you know, MLK Jr, he was a good one!), and then complained that these days the n-words are really annoying. You know, like those rapper ones, not like the good ones who wore suits etc... and then told a story about one of the good ones who defended the comedian on Twitter then committed suicide, well, I don't think people would give that comedian so much praise.

Anyway, I say that bit not because I want Dave Chappelle cancelled, only that I reserve the right to be a critic.
 
angrysoba said:
The Very Bad Wizards talked about this special on their podcast.

They are big fans of Chappelle so they were inclined to be supportive of him.

That said, I think they also end with the idea that Chappelle is something of a ranting reactionary. They point to the fact that people in their daughter's generation pretty much accept trans people with none of this "Ohh...b...b...but what if the sky is falling!?!?!" They also point out that if we are charitable we can see that Chappelle is frustrated that black people apparently don't seem to have the same acceptance as trans people and gay people before them.
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You would be hard pressed to find someone arguing against black or interracial marriage in the past 15 years in so many words while it is quite popular to be explicitly against gay or trans people. And while trans women especially of color might not be murdered by the police at as much a higher rate than white men, there certainly are issues of their murder.
 
Meadmaker said:
To go deeply into what is so deeply and utterly wrong with the protests against it would really require me to discuss a whole lot of stuff that really belongs over in a thread in social issues and current events.
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I probably should have created the thread there, since my main point was to discuss the controversy that erupted around the special airing on Netflix.
 
angrysoba said:
That said, I think they also end with the idea that Chappelle is something of a ranting reactionary. They point to the fact that people in their daughter's generation pretty much accept trans people with none of this "Ohh...b...b...but what if the sky is falling!?!?!"
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I think many, if not most, standup performers can be characterized at ranting reactionaries. To a pretty significant degree, that's what standup comedy is. Also, I'd say from watching the special that Mr. Chapelle pretty much accepts trans people. I'm not sure what the sky is falling comment is supposed to reference. Chapelle did make several trans jokes, and also expressed his disbelief at Caitlyn Jenner winning the Woman of the year, but I wouldn't consider that to be 'sky is falling' type rhetoric.



he had a trans comedian friend and he tells a touching story, but honestly that comes across as a little manipulative. I mean, if a comedia were to walk around telling jokes using the n-word and saying that there used to be good ones (you know, MLK Jr, he was a good one!), and then complained that these days the n-words are really annoying. You know, like those rapper ones, not like the good ones who wore suits etc... and then told a story about one of the good ones who defended the comedian on Twitter then committed suicide, well, I don't think people would give that comedian so much praise.
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Depends on the jokes, I guess. It seems there are those out there that want certain groups to be immune from any jokes whatsoever which seems like a special privilege. Jokes are a tricky business. Much of comedy is made up of making light of the difference between groups and the peculiarities of people - as Darwin would say "endless forms most beautiful". The Simpsons, for example, relied heavily on (gasp) stereotypes.

On the other hand, I've certainly heard jokes that were intended to be cruel and make fun at the expense of others, but I didn't see any of that with Chapelle's performance.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You would be hard pressed to find someone arguing against black or interracial marriage in the past 15 years in so many words while it is quite popular to be explicitly against gay or trans people. And while trans women especially of color might not be murdered by the police at as much a higher rate than white men, there certainly are issues of their murder.
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Oh I completely agree. Trans people have a lot of discrimination to deal with. I think the point they were making on VBW is - and they sound hopeful here - that when those over forty are dead or old trans people will probably be almost universally accepted. That said, there will probably still be racism.
 
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