Does zero have a 'value'

[luvhumility]

I'm with you on Null and Zero (for example, from a database standpoint)... but I'm not clear on what it means for a variable to be "Nothing". Can you give a concrete example?


What's the value, in C++, of a variable that has not been declared?

The "Value" is considered undefined. What that means is that if the variable is not defined in the declarations area (typically at the beginning of the program) as 0 or some other number etc it "may" be zero, or maybe not. This is due to possible previous data that could be in that memory location and due to the way compiliers work. Leaving it undefind is not recomended. You never know what it might "put" in the place of the variable if it is left unefined. Its like giving the computer free will to do what it wants! Not a good idea!

lh

 

[Alkatran]

A C variable that hasn't been declared doesn't exist. It can't have a value.

By the way, in C, NULL is equal to 0. The only difference is that NULL is usually used in the context of pointers, because 0 would be more confusing.

 

[69dodge]

I'm with you on Null and Zero (for example, from a database standpoint)... but I'm not clear on what it means for a variable to be "Nothing". Can you give a concrete example?

"Nothing" in Visual Basic is kind of like a null pointer in C.

A null pointer doesn't point to anything, so it's meaningless to talk about the value of what it points to.

 

[69dodge]

What's the value, in C++, of a variable that has not been declared?

A C++ program won't compile if it refers to a variable that hasn't been declared. One might say, strictly speaking, that it's not a C++ program. So your question is unanswerable.

 

[10001]

yes they are the same. 0 none, nothing, etc

e.g: lets assume a word which identify something: dimiry
and another: bomrodo

what do they mean to anyone who's language is english.
probably can not link it to anything in the memory.

however... if there is ZERO, nothing, 0, none. that is just what it is. there is no dimiry, there is no bomrodo. it doesnt matter what they mean.

if to answer if 'bank account is zero' and 'no bank account' is the same. the fact in reality is that yes it is the same. there is no money there. IT IS JUST WORDED DIFFERENTLY because of the way we differentiate the actions we carry out, try to do, or explain, ETC. Other wise we will ll be smaking the same noise to explain that one stick has a mark and the other doesn't. ofcourse a stick with a mark is different from a stick without a mark. that is what we see. hence the words 'with and without' and 'mark' 'stick' so forth.

but when there is nothing. that is all there is...
zero, none, nothing, 0, void?, etc ^^
it doesnt matter what word you put before or after it.

if you didnt exist- which means there is no you, zero existance, nothing of you at all, you didnt happen etc
would it matter to you(no one in particular(just trying to make point ^^)'if there was one or a million what ever 'IS'
with what ever condition?

it is because something exist we put value and meaning to it. because we exist and interact with exsitance.

 

[10001]

dear drkitten

but during the time that yu do not have anything in the account you cant do anythng with it, concerning money. it is as if you didnt have one. but when you put money into it. well isn't it same as you having the money? just not in your pocket?

getting back to the point 'zero'.

say if you did use the overdraft.and somehow the bank computers memory was erased, the paper work got burned, and all the people who new about your overdraft withdraw died or forgot about it. and even you forgot about it. erased from all the memories. does this still mean you have a negative balance in the back?

and how did we come to determine a terminology of 'zero temperature' ?
and what does 'no' mean in "no temperature'?
does it opose the meaning of 'yes' there IS something (temperature. a quatifiable value, something that we experience with our sences)?
which gives the meaning of 'no' as there is nothing there, if the word 'no' was to be co-regulated with the word 'temperature' it means ther is no quatifiable ' temperature'. which seems silly because we all know there is some level of temp anywhere. so we may assume that there is something wrong with the thermometer.

 

[10001]

i like the way you guys talk.. write

Well, no, if you add up zeros you still have zeros. Here, have zero BMW's, personal jet planes, and attractive fembots. I have monitored carefully, and the number of those that I have has stayed at 0 consistently.

i see the three exact explaination which answers the thread.
one that sees reality.
one that has human 'values'.
and the two that shows it all...
the pain, hunger, happiness, hope, little bit of sadness, disappointment , suffering, etc.
Alllll because of nothing. or is it because of not having 'something'. or is it because of knowing that 'something we might want' is there... babble babble babble

yap! its the million dollars
thats why we are alll here

face it!
if jref was offering zero dollars or no money or $0 or nothing at all.
'none' of you will be here, there would be 'no' one here. there would be 'zero' amount of threads. 'no' threads would come up on this site. there would be 'nothing' to see or read here.
maybe this site would not exist at all...
blah blah blah

 

[Nick Bogaerts]

Jf to answer if 'bank account is zero' and 'no bank account' is the same. the fact in reality is that yes it is the same. there is no money there.

You obviously have never been overdrawn. There is money in the bank, and you may even be able to take some out if your bank manager likes you, even though your account has a value of 0.

 

[drkitten]

A C++ program won't compile if it refers to a variable that hasn't been declared. One might say, strictly speaking, that it's not a C++ program.

One might, but one might also prove oneself an idiot by so doing.

The point is that there's a big difference between a variable with no value [or an undefined value] and no variable at all. It's a sufficiently fundamental difference that the compiler is required to detect it.

 

[CapelDodger]

Zero : The Biography of a Dangerous Idea, by Charles Seife, is interesting. It starts with Chapter 0, which is kinda cute.

Zero is powerful because it is infinity's twin. They are equal and opposite, yin and yang. They are equally paradoxical and troubling. The biggest questions in science and religion are about nothingness and eternity, the void and the infinite, zero and infinity. The clashes over zero were the battles that shook the foundations of philosophy, of science, of mathematics, and of religion. Underneath every revolution lay a zero - and an infinity.

Perhaps overstated, but he makes a brave effort to demonstrate his case. He puts across the point that Greek philosophy and mathematics (closely intertwined) were glued to geometry, where zero and negatives have no obvious meaning. Indian mathematics, on the other hand, loved such mystical, mysterious items. Whence came Zen, thence came Zero.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0285635948/qid=1129767820/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/026-9071239-3058816

 

[CapelDodger]

Leaving it undefind is not recomended. You never know what it might "put" in the place of the variable if it is left unefined. Its like giving the computer free will to do what it wants! Not a good idea!

Old-time Fortran allowed undeclared variables. If the name began with K-N (? It was a long time ago) it was assumed an integer, otherwise a real. No compiler error. Lots of bugs. We flew by the seat-of-our-pants in those days. But it taught us discipline, dammit. Always declare, always initialise, or be regarded as a public nuisance.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I'm with you on Null and Zero (for example, from a database standpoint)... but I'm not clear on what it means for a variable to be "Nothing". Can you give a concrete example?

In VB NOTHING is a keyword for object variables. As 69dodge said, "Nothing" in Visual Basic is kind of like a null pointer in C. Sort of. VB has its own built in way of handling pointers and evaluating variables.

If you do "Dim x as Object", an Object could be all sorts of things so VB doesn't know how to allocate memory. So it doesn't. OK, maybe it actually does, I don't remember, acutally it probably does set apointer, but it doesn't matter much. Trying to do anything with x (other than check if x is NOTHING or SET x) will return a "Object not set" error. So VB recognizes that such a thing as x exists, but it does not have a value property. It has no value, because it is nothing. It can't even have a value of null (null means that it has a value property, but the value is not set, or perhaps more correctly is invalid). It is just a name that COULD refer to something with a value.

VB also has EMPTY, which is (I think) more or less the same as NOTHING for non-object variables. Sort of. To be EMPTY, a pointer must be set. For example, a declared sting has a zero pointer, but is not EMPTY because no value has been initiated for the variable to have a value property of EMPTY.

A concrete example is calling the InputBox function. When you call x = InputBox(""), the user can click Cancel, or not enter anyhting and click OK. OK sets x as a null string. Cancel doesn't do anything with x. But in both cases x is considered not EMPTY and will evaluate to a null string. The only way to tell the difference is to check whether the string pointer of x is zero (which would mean the user clicked Cancel).

Which just proves how illogical VB is. But it is an easy way of handling variable. C would never accept "the color of the invisible pink unicorn", but VB could carry on happily (at least for a while) just "imagining" that there is a unicorn. But it carrys and extension of "zero". You can have zero (a thing that has a value and the value is zero), null (a thing that has a value and no value applies or is set), and nothing (a thing that has no value). You could also have a nullthing (which would be no thing).

I brought it up because all of these things (zero, one, a 'thing', null, nothing) are just descriptions that we apply to the physical universe. The physical universe itself doesn't care about or recognize apples or chairs and any such things. Breaking down the universe into 'things' is just a way for us to understand it and define it.

Number: If I asked, how many swimmers are in the pool, and the answer was two, then I could also ask "what are the names of the swimmers." Because the pool has a property of "swimmer" with a value and therefore "swimmer" have a "name" property.

Zero: If I asked, how many swimmers are in the pool, and the answer was zero, and I ask "what are the names of the swimmers", it make no sense. Because swimmers is zero, there is no "swimmer" to have a name property. We can have swimmer = 0, but then we can't look further into swimmer.

Null-Invalid: If I asked, how many swimmers are in the pool, and the answer was "I don't know", and I ask "what are the names of the swimmers", it make no sense. Because swimmers is null. The value you asked for is invalid. We can't look further into swimmer.

Null-Not set: If I asked, how many concepts are in the pool, the answer is also null. Because the pool does not have a 'concept' property. The value you asked for is not set.

Nothing: If I asked, how many swimmers are in the pool, and there is no pool, the answer is nothing. Because pool is nothing.

Nullthing: If I asked, how many whoop-dill-dottely-doo, the asnwer is nullthing. Because I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[10001]

i guess you just proved my point

You obviously have never been overdrawn. There is money in the bank, and you may even be able to take some out if your bank manager likes you, even though your account has a value of 0.

there is no money there. but you have just taken it from someone else. it didn't come from nothing... negativity opose to something that exist is a human value. no existance, 0, nothing, zero, none, etc is something that we can not even imagin. so how can it have a 'value' 'quantity' or what ever we want to exert on to it.

when anything comes to a zero,nothing, 0 then all that was before, wether it is a value, quantity, expression or what ever you want to call it, all become the same. because there is nothing there to differentiate it.

 

[Filip Sandor]

Does zero have a mathematical value? Just something we were discussing at work today. I said I'd ask. It sounds really simple but when you think about it... maybe not.

Zero, like all numbers, is a conceptual tool used to describe things like quantity and magnitude, usually of physical things however, it is not limitted to describing physical things alone - even ideas and feelings can be assigned numerical 'value'.

It's pretty basic I guess.

 

[gnome]

there is no money there. but you have just taken it from someone else. it didn't come from nothing... negativity opose to something that exist is a human value. no existance, 0, nothing, zero, none, etc is something that we can not even imagin. so how can it have a 'value' 'quantity' or what ever we want to exert on to it.

when anything comes to a zero,nothing, 0 then all that was before, wether it is a value, quantity, expression or what ever you want to call it, all become the same. because there is nothing there to differentiate it.

I'm not sure how you mean that "nothing" can't be imagined. We imagine, and comprehend it all the time. There are 0 elephants on my desk. If my understanding of that doesn't count, you have a uselessly narrow definition of "understanding"

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Does zero have a mathematical value? Just something we were discussing at work today. I said I'd ask. It sounds really simple but when you think about it... maybe not.

To get to the original question: Yes. Zero has a value. If something has a value of zero, it has a value of zero. If something has no value, it has a "value of null" (no value, which means that it doesn't have a value).

Depending on what you are working with, zero and null can equate to the same thing and everything will work out fine. In other cases, confusing zero with null causes problems. Anyone who has worked with Microsoft Excel functions finds out pretty quickly the difference between zero and null. A calculation that results in zero has a value of zero. A calculation that can't be calculated doesn't. It has no value.

The calculation of six unicorns minus six unicorns has a value--it has a value of zero. The calculation of six unicorns minus six dragons has no value--which we could define as a value of null.

 

[10001]

how can you imagin nothing?

I'm not sure how you mean that "nothing" can't be imagined. We imagine, and comprehend it all the time. There are 0 elephants on my desk. If my understanding of that doesn't count, you have a uselessly narrow definition of "understanding"

sinc you made a personal remark...

it seems you dont have an uderstanding of "understanding"
how could anyone posibily "imagin" nothing?

when you talk about Elephants. you are just indicating that ther is no elephant. you are not saything there is nothing there.

* why do you say there is nothing "on" your desk.(lets not go into what determines the term "on")
* then what's the airparticles floating on top of it?
* lets assume you sucked the air out of the top of your desk.
* then how about the light which passess through the emptiness above the desk.
* lets block that out also along with waves and things we cant see.

* still it leaves the "empty space" . we took and blocked everything out. but how about the empty space?
* is that what you call nothing? (pleasse dont go into the terminology of the word 'nothing') if thats the case i appologise for my narrow 'understanding' of your 'understanding'

can you imagin.. no light, no darkness, no emptiness?
if you can... well... you are not an average human being. go for the challange. hard to prove it though...

perhaps i should have put the word 'absolute nothing'
so you could comprehend better.
but this thread IS about 0, none, nothing and so on....

 

[gnome]

sinc you made a personal remark...

I'm not sure what part of that you took as a personal remark, but please understand that wasn't my intention. Let's move on.

it seems you dont have an uderstanding of "understanding"
how could anyone posibily "imagin" nothing?

when you talk about Elephants. you are just indicating that ther is no elephant. you are not saything there is nothing there.

* why do you say there is nothing "on" your desk.(lets not go into what determines the term "on")
* then what's the airparticles floating on top of it?
* lets assume you sucked the air out of the top of your desk.
* then how about the light which passess through the emptiness above the desk.
* lets block that out also along with waves and things we cant see.

* still it leaves the "empty space" . we took and blocked everything out. but how about the empty space?
* is that what you call nothing? (pleasse dont go into the terminology of the word 'nothing') if thats the case i appologise for my narrow 'understanding' of your 'understanding'

can you imagin.. no light, no darkness, no emptiness?
if you can... well... you are not an average human being. go for the challange. hard to prove it though...

perhaps i should have put the word 'absolute nothing'
so you could comprehend better.
but this thread IS about 0, none, nothing and so on....

I think you're mistaken about the use of 0... I would venture that 99.9% of the time, when people use 0 they're not talking about this absolute nothingness you mention, but measuring a specific quantity, such as (in my previous example) how many elephants. Whether there is some of anything else, still means 0 is perfectly fair to use when talking about the elephants.

Another possible point of confusion: when discussing discrete quantities, such as "how many" ... exactly 0 is feasible. When the measure is along a continuum, to where fractional answers may result... you are correct that exactly 0 can be elusive.

 

[maddog]

When I was at freshman at the University of Maryland, my Math 790 SAT score got me placed into the Calc 1 class for Math Department Honors (another step above general Honors classes), which was taught by Dr. Michel Brin, father of Google-founder Sergey Brin. This class was WAAAAAAY too theoretical for any undergrad-level course. The first day, the first thing Dr. Brin did was to "Prove the existence of zero". Next, he went on to "Prove the existence of one". Followed, of course by "Prove that zero and one are different".

I had at the time, and still have today, exactly zero idea what he was talking about. His plan for the first class, however, is the only thing I remember at all from the course material.

On the first exam, I beat the class average with an 18 out of 100. I think he gave us all a "gentleman's C", and most of us went to either General Honors Calc 2 or the regular, generic Calc 2.

And now, after a BS in Engineering and several graduate level advanced calculus classes, I'm teaching Statistics at a community college. But I still have no idea what Dr. Brin was talking about.

Perhaps this doesn't help the discussion, but I hope it's at least an interesting story!

 

[drkitten]

but this thread IS about 0, none, nothing and so on....

But that's one of the central points that you fail to understand. Zero (0) is not the same as none, nothing, and so on. You've been given examples innumerable -- a bank account with zero balance is not the same as no bank accout. A zero temperature is not the same as no temperature whatsoever. Zero elephants on my desk is not the same as an empty desktop. Chapter zero in a textbook is not the same as no chapter. et cetera....