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Does Palestine Have A Government?

Dr Adequate

Banned
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There seems to be some confusion on this subject, so please let each person with an opinion state that opinion and abide by the consequences.
 
What particular consequences would that be?

In my opinion, they have a government, but its writ does not extend very far (too many other groups are as well or better armed), it is not particular representative or effective and it is actively hostile to Israel and the rest of the non-muslim world.
 
Well, a phrase that struck me recently in a post about the situation was that the supposed government does not have an effective "monopoly of force". Which is one definition of a government, and I think the best.

Are the people who are meant to have been elected actually in control? Does the "government" have anything like a "monopoly of force"?
 
gtc said:
What particular consequences would that be?
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A severe tongue-lashing from Dr Adequate...:D

Yes, they do. They had more-or-less free elections; that gives a strong claim of legitimacy to those who claim to be the government.

Now, if they revert to the "one man, one vote, one time" formula, they'd lose that legitimacy.

And whether or not that government is effectively running the country is another question. I guess you could say they certainly have a de jure government; whether they have a de facto government is debatable.
 
Dr Adequate said:
Well, a phrase that struck me recently in a post about the situation was that the supposed government does not have an effective "monopoly of force". Which is one definition of a government, and I think the best.
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That's a characteristic of a de facto government, but I don't think that's a very good definition. How about: A society's institution of laws and people whose purpose it is establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and their posterity.
 
BPSCG said:
That's a characteristic of a de facto government, but I don't think that's a very good definition. How about: A society's institution of laws and people whose purpose it is establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and their posterity.
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:clap:
 
Hamas is the majority party in the government of the Palestinian Authority. At least is is so officially.

No question that Hamas was democratically elected, the question is whether they do in fact act as a government.

So far, I'd say no.
 
I asked this in another thread, but I think it bears repeating: Does Lebanon have an official army, and if so, where have they been hiding while their country is bombed? Are they so intertwined with Hezbollah that they are already fighting the Israeli army or are they that powerless that they can't do anything about what Hezbollah's actions have brought on the rest of the country?

Michael

MIchael
 
coalesce said:
Are they so intertwined with Hezbollah that they are already fighting the Israeli army or are they that powerless that they can't do anything about what Hezbollah's actions have brought on the rest of the country?
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Lebanon is about 30% Shia, but the official army (which does exist) is about 50% Shia, thanks largely to Syria's previous influence in the country. It's not clear what would happen if the army were ordered by the government to confront Hezballah militarily, but chances are there would be quite a bit of internal dissent. The army is also weak, with most soldiers very poorly trained, so even if the army didn't fracture it would still be very messy fighting with heavy casualties on the part of the Lebanese army and civilians. If they DID confront Hezballah, that could restart the civil war, and even most of Hezballah's opponents within Lebanon aren't interested in biting off that much. So there really isn't the political will to try.
 
Abdul Alhazred said:
Hamas is the majority party in the government of the Palestinian Authority. At least is is so officially.

No question that Hamas was democratically elected, the question is whether they do in fact act as a government.

So far, I'd say no.
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Well, they haven't exactly had much of a chance. Even before the election, the Palestinian infrastructure was barely existent. After the election, Israel and the West froze all funds going to the PA, ensuring that the government basically couldn't function at all. Then, after Israel launched the war in Gaza, the IDF rounded up virtually the entire Palestinian parliament and a sizeable chunk of the cabinet ministers. As far as I am aware, they are still being held (without trial or charges, of course).

There's not much governing that can be done from a prison cell.
 
Cleon said:
Well, they haven't exactly had much of a chance. Even before the election, the Palestinian infrastructure was barely existent. After the election, Israel and the West froze all funds going to the PA, ensuring that the government basically couldn't function at all.
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And there was an easy way for Hamas to get out of that bind of assets and contributions being frozen: renounce terrorism and recognize Israel. But they didn't, did they? Why? Because they weren't interested in acting as a government, they were only interested in getting their hands on more power to further their terrorism.
 
Ziggurat said:
And there was an easy way for Hamas to get out of that bind of assets and contributions being frozen: renounce terrorism and recognize Israel. But they didn't, did they? Why? Because they weren't interested in acting as a government, they were only interested in getting their hands on more power to further their terrorism.
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Well, if you've made your mind up that that's the case, nothing I can say will make a difference.
 
Cleon said:
Well, if you've made your mind up that that's the case, nothing I can say will make a difference.
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Yeah, there's just no reasoning with a guy who has a basic grasp of reality, is there? If you have something to offer that rebuts the obvious point Zig raised, I'd love to hear it.

I'll be sitting right here, waiting. Patiently. Oh so patiently.
 
Dr Adequate said:
OK, would the people who say that Palestine has a government like to slug it out with the guy who doubts the existence of Palestine?
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No map, then. Okay. Funny, I would have expected one from pretty much any other national entity. I would also have expected you to realize the subtext, but then I guess it's just "disappointment day" on Planet Jocko.

Ah well.
 
BPSCG said:
That's a characteristic of a de facto government, but I don't think that's a very good definition. How about: A society's institution of laws and people whose purpose it is establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and their posterity.
Click to expand...
By this defintion lots of governments aren't governments. Is it part of the purpose of the Iraninan government, for example, to "secure the blesings of liberty"? Of China to "establish justice"? Of North Korea to "promote the general welfare"?

How are the Palestinians doing at "ensuring domestic tranquility"? Is that actually their goal?

No, you've said what a government should be. But I have said what one is.
 
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Jocko said:
No map, then. Okay. Funny, I would have expected one from pretty much any other national entity. I would also have expected you to realize the subtext, but then I guess it's just "disappointment day" on Planet Jocko.

Ah well.
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You can, I'm sure, find your own maps of the Midddle East. If you will not explain your "subtext", feel free to be disappointed.
 
Cleon said:
Then, after Israel launched the war in Gaza, the IDF rounded up virtually the entire Palestinian parliament and a sizeable chunk of the cabinet ministers.
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I was under the impression that Hamas launched the war in Gaza by digging a tunnel under the border and attacking Israeli troops. Is this not the case or is that a typo on your part?
 
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