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Does Matter Really Exist?

Iacchus said:
The physical world is a part of my conscious experience. Which, is why I suggest both are subsets of an even greater conscious experience, which is essentially what the alleged quote by Max Planck says.
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Careful, now. You assume that the world is PART of your consciousness, and then proceed to form a hypothesis from that. But what if, as I suggest, the physical world creates your consciousness ? You can't simply proceed from your assumptions without some form of evidence, Iacchus.
 
Belz... said:
Were you directly answering my post ? And, if so, are you saying that you can choose not to come into contact with your consciousness ?
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No, I can choose not to come into contact with the "physical world."
 
Belz... said:
Careful, now. You assume that the world is PART of your consciousness, and then proceed to form a hypothesis from that. But what if, as I suggest, the physical world creates your consciousness ? You can't simply proceed from your assumptions without some form of evidence, Iacchus.
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No, there is a greater consciousness from which the physical world and my consciousness proceed.

Again, the alleged quote by Max Planck ...

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.
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If someone had a gun to your head and threatened to kill you, do you think a good escape route would be to fall asleep? If you found doing so difficult, would downing a sleeping pill be wise?

What if you'd just fallen off a cliff? If you could knock yourself out, would it save you?
 
Iacchus said:
No, I can choose not to come into contact with the "physical world."
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You can also choose to fly unaided...you can choose to win the lottery, or someone's heart. You can choose lots of things...

Choosing isn't doing.
 
Iacchus said:
You "behave" very much like a materialist, especially with your exchanges with hammegk.
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Only if you conveniently ignore my remarks to Belz...which you yourself quoted on the previous page of this thread. You wanting me to be a materialist does not make me one.
 
The physical world is a part of my conscious experience. Which, is why I suggest both are subsets of an even greater conscious experience, which is essentially what the alleged quote by Max Planck says.
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If you use the set analogy, what you are saying is that to experience the physical world is to contain it, or at least the portion of it that you experience, in its entirety. I do not see a reason to believe that. I do not happen to believe that the physical world is "part" of my conscious experience. I find it quite likely that the physical world would be diminished very little should my conscious experience fail. It might be diminished by the amount of my own conscious experience, which is to say that it is possible, though not certain, that my conscious experience is a part of the physical world, rather than the other way around. I do not see, however, any evidence that the set of all conscious experiences is what the world is made of. I really believe, for example, that places outside our experience exist independently of it, and are not created in toto when we discover them, and I believe this would be true whether or not there is a God to take up the slack and do the experiencing in our absence.

My experience and yours are subsets of the set of all experiences. We are subsets of the set of all who experience. This does not logically imply that there is a single consciousness that binds all the members of the set together. The addends are not subsets of the sum. A "greater conscious experience" would imply not only that there is a set of all experiences, but that it experiences all, and shares our experiences, and that the existence of everything, matter included, is contingent on the maintenance of that experience. Berkeley it sounds like. I don't have a virtual e-stone to kick here, so I can't refute it, but I can certainly disagree.

Iacchus, just to get it straight:

The contents of a box are not a subset of the box itself.

Putting ten babies in the bathtub does not create a superbaby.
 
Mercutio said:
You can also choose to fly unaided...you can choose to win the lottery, or someone's heart. You can choose lots of things...

Choosing isn't doing.
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Yet most people can choose to fall asleep ... which, happens all the time.
 
bruto said:
If you use the set analogy, what you are saying is that to experience the physical world is to contain it, or at least the portion of it that you experience, in its entirety.
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No, I'm suggesting that both are separate subsets, yet of the same overall reality.
 
Iacchus said:
Yet most people can choose to fall asleep ... which, happens all the time.
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News flash, Iacchus: when you are asleep, you are still in contact with the world. Your claim was that you could choose not to come into contact with the "physical world." Your claim presupposes a physical world, so I must assume that you are not (for the purposes of your claim) denying its existence; rather, you say you can choose not to come into contact with it.

This is a far different thing from choosing to fall asleep.
 
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