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Merged Does CERN prove Einstein wrong?

My comment wasn't a question. You've just invented a new kind of lunar regolith, never before known to science, that happens to magically exhibit all the properties you need in order for your thought-up-on-the-spur-of-the-moment theory to seem reasonable.

Sheesh.
 
MattusMaximus said:
So THAT'S why my GPS system never works... oh wait, it does. In accordance with general relativity, no less.
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"Tom Van Flandern, who once worked for the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington and runs a website (www.metaresearch.org) with a newsletter that promotes interest in scientific ideas "outside of the mainstream of theories in Astronomy", claims to have discovered a dirty secret.

Van Flandern was hired to do some consulting work for the physics department at the University of Maryland on the global positioning system (GPS), the ring of 24 satellites circling the Earth, which, among other convenient attributes, are able to pinpoint precise locations for befuddled automobile drivers and bushwalkers anywhere on the planet. According to him, the confusing "rigmarole" of relativity isn't needed to maintain the GPS, even though in theory it should be." -- http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1162/full
 
JayUtah said:
My comment wasn't a question. You've just invented a new kind of lunar regolith, never before known to science, that happens to magically exhibit all the properties you need in order for your thought-up-on-the-spur-of-the-moment theory to seem reasonable.

Sheesh.
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It's a hypothesis yes. But what if calculations were made for common moon minerals and they fit my hypothesis? Then that would make it a pretty good theory. The basic premise is that the reflective material they shine the laser light on, on the moon, is natural.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I meant the results from the measurements: http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/04-15MoonLight.asp

"“Near full moon, the strength of the returning light decreases by a factor of ten.” said first author Tom Murphy, associate professor of physics at the University of California ... their instrument detects only a tenth as much light returns most nights. And when the moon is full the results are ten times worse."
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And I STILL mean measurements of the actual Moon. Of which no part has yet revealed behavior similar to what you describe.

So your magic shiny spot is so rare it has never shown up before, ever, as a single glint of light from any other part of the Moon. Nor has any part of the Moon ever been seen to darken (or go non-shiny) in full sunlight and restore again during the night.
 
nomuse said:
And I STILL mean measurements of the actual Moon. Of which no part has yet revealed behavior similar to what you describe.

So your magic shiny spot is so rare it has never shown up before, ever, as a single glint of light from any other part of the Moon. Nor has any part of the Moon ever been seen to darken (or go non-shiny) in full sunlight and restore again during the night.
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But has many different spots on the moon been tested with a laser from Earth? I predict that more such reflective spots will be found. And the spots will not appear darkened in the sunlight. The spots, such as highly reflective patches on moon rocks, will appear bright on photographs. The spots will be small and only show up on very zoomed in photographs of the moon surface. I haven't seen any such closeup photographs (not counting the Apollo studio shots ;)).
 
Anders Lindman said:
But has many different spots on the moon been tested with a laser from Earth?
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Yup.
Anders Lindman said:
I predict that more such reflective spots will be found. And the spots will not appear darkened in the sunlight. The spots, such as highly reflective patches on moon rocks, will appear bright on photographs.
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Yet that has not happened. Why not?
Anders Lindman said:
The spots will be small and only show up on very zoomed in photographs of the moon surface. I haven't seen any such closeup photographs (not counting the Apollo studio shots ;)).
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There is a reason you haven't seen them.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I only did a few web searches. So maybe there is information about other laser-moon tests to be found but I didn't find anything right away.
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I think your search was a hoax and you are just covering up the fact that you found all kinds of stuff, but don't want anyone else to know about it.
 
Anders: even a patch of lunar regolith a km square, perfectly flat, and perfectly reflective, would not give the same behavior when light is shined on it as the retroreflector.
The retroreflector, within a large range of angles, returns a photon down the path it arrived from.
A mirror will only do that if it is perfectly perpendicular to the photon's path. Otherwise the photon goes off on an angle, and does not return along its arrival path.
Because the Earth is rotating, the angle from any beam of light from a single spot on Earth will be constantly changing. There could be only one instant when the shiny regolith was perpendicular to the light beam.
 
[crap-stirring]
I guess now would be a bad time to mention the intrinsically retroreflective qualities of lunar regolith, caused by microspheres of volcanic glass?
[/crap-stirring]
 
TjW said:
Anders: even a patch of lunar regolith a km square, perfectly flat, and perfectly reflective, would not give the same behavior when light is shined on it as the retroreflector.
The retroreflector, within a large range of angles, returns a photon down the path it arrived from.
A mirror will only do that if it is perfectly perpendicular to the photon's path. Otherwise the photon goes off on an angle, and does not return along its arrival path.
Because the Earth is rotating, the angle from any beam of light from a single spot on Earth will be constantly changing. There could be only one instant when the shiny regolith was perpendicular to the light beam.
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"Retro-reflectivity refers to the reflection of light back towards the source from which it originates. Like many natural surfaces, the Moon's surface reflects considerably more light back in this direction than would, say, a diffuse reflector like a sheet of paper or a surface sprayed with "flat" paint. One of the many manifestations of this is that the Full Moon (which is always viewed with the Sun "at our backs") is considerably brighter than might be expected from its surface brightness at other phases. Another is the "hot spots" seen in many photos taken from lunar orbit, where a bright patch is seen in the direction opposite the Sun (where one would expect to see the shadow of the spacecraft, if it were large enough to be visible)." -- http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Retro-Reflection+phenomena
 
Anders Lindman said:
But what if calculations were made for common moon minerals and they fit my hypothesis?
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And what if a troop of tap-dancing elves parachuted onto my front lawn? The reality is that no lunar material even comes close to meeting your required optical properties. That's why you have to take such pains to say it's small and localized so we can't readily see it. You know lunar surface material doesn't behave that way, so you have to evade all the prevailing observations.

The basic premise is that the reflective material they shine the laser light on, on the moon, is natural.
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In other words, that's the farfetched proposition you need to be true in order for your thrown-together beliefs to hold. That's pure wishful thinking, not science.

Anders Lindman said:
I predict that more such reflective spots will be found.
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You haven't yet proven that one of them has been found. In fact, you haven't come up with a plausible justification that such a material is even possible.

And the spots will not appear darkened in the sunlight. The spots, such as highly reflective patches on moon rocks, will appear bright on photographs. The spots will be small and only show up on very zoomed in photographs of the moon surface.
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In other words, the material will have exactly the set of improbable characteristics you need in order to keep believing in hoaxed Moon landings. None of this Magic Moon Dust exists except in your imagination. I'm so glad the things I believe in actually exist and form part of a demonstrable reality.

Again, I have to ask: why do you think this is the path of enlightenment? You say you believe in conspiracy theories because you think the mainstream should always be questioned. But how is this not simply holding to a conspiracy theory at all costs? That's not intellectual prudence; it's dogmatism.
 
Natural retro-reflection on the lunar surface accounts for only a small increase (i.e., less than a factor of 2) over Lambert's model. Sorry, the numbers don't add up.
 
JayUtah said:
Natural retro-reflection on the lunar surface accounts for only a small increase (i.e., less than a factor of 2) over Lambert's model. Sorry, the numbers don't add up.
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The hot spots I posted about in post 1396 look like potential candidates.
 
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