Does being a sceptic ever get you down?

[lister]

I am a member of a rabbit forum, which is 99.9% female. Without wishing to offend any female sceptics here, it does appear to the vast majority of members believe in some major form of woo or other, with homeopathy being chief.

Week after week we get posts from people praising homeopathy and claiming that it has just saved their rabbit's life when conventional veterinary medicine failed utterly. The thread instantly becomes a massive advertisment for homeopathy with everyone chiming in how great it is.

Now I tend to keep out of such threads UNLESS the OP says something like "what do you all think about homeopathy?", OR someone starts advocating using homeopathy in favour of effective treatment.

When I do become involved I always go out of my way to be polite and deferent to people's opinions, but still point out firmly that proper testing shows no results, and that anecdotal evidence is not good enough. (This just doesn't get comprehended. Personal anecdote is king for these people)

Whilst I am polite, I get lambasted for being "closed minded", "dictating my opinion", and "scoffing" at people, none of which I have ever done. I also get "pitied" for my reliance on a scientific world view and "constantly pulling down threads". The number of times my statements have been quoted followed by the old "rolling eye" smiley know no bounds! People ask with incredulity what it would take for me to be convinced, as if I am some naysayer who will never be turned from his evil denial. They point out the reams of anecdote and shake their heads with dispair at my stupidity. When I say that I simply require results above placebo in a controlled trial I am rewarded with yet more anecdote.

I'm sorry I'm rambling, but sometimes it just gets me down. Sometimes I wonder what the point of debating these people is, and that I should just make my life simpler by keeping out of things. We quite often have get togethers and I am starting to find myself becoming uncomfortable because of what people are starting to think of me.

Sometimes I just want to give up and let people carry on with their stupidity, but something becomes stubborn in me, and I want the truth to be known. When people are denying their rabbits proper treatment it becomes easier to speak because I know that an innocent animal will suffer unless I speak out, but for more general woo I am just starting to lose all hope for rational thought in this world. The woos seem to be multiplying everywhere I look.

How Randi has put up with a lifetime of this I just don't know. He has my deepest respect. I would also like to thank everyone who contributes to this forum because, although I don't post much, I swear it's the only thing that keeps me sane sometimes!

Self pitying ramble over. Sorry!

 

[Dunstan]

Fortunately I was a cynic before I was a skeptic. So the thought that 95% of the population cannot grasp basic concepts like anecdotal evidence vs. scientific data no longer fazes me.

Not every skeptic needs to be a James Randi manning the barricades and denouncing woo whenever he finds it. If you're not up to the stress and social repercussions of that -- I'm certainly not -- then just do what you feel comfortable with.

In your specific situation, I would suggest you not measure success in terms of turning back the wave of pro-homeopathy on your rabbit message board. It's so highly unlikely that any one person could accomplish such a thing that you shouldn't hold yourself to that standard. Instead, continue to politely point out your well-supported arguments and sources, and hope that maybe the occasional new member will be receptive to it, and that some owners who try homeopathy without success will report their anecdotal evidence, too. To avoid antagonizing people unduly, you might want to write one or two polite but thorough posts and then simply post a brief note and a link to them in any new homeopathy thread. (This also has the virtue of saving time.)

 

[sat556]

People ask with incredulity what it would take for me to be convinced,

You might try turning that one round on them. If they can't answer, then it shows who is 'closed minded' around there.

 

[Miss Whiplash]

I think women tend to believe woo because it's more or less marketed to women more than men. Pick up any womans' magazine and you will find an astrology column and at least one article on homeopathy. Then look at the adverts in the back. It will be full of psychics hotlines and the like.

I'm female and I've been jeered off many forums in the past 15 years for being a skeptic. All I have to do is try point out some error or correct some urban legend/tall tale and out I go. Years ago, I was banned from a TV show forum because I dared mention the name "James Randi." One would think the devil himself materialized the way the mod reacted. I found out he slaughtered one of her sacred cows in a magazine article and she was still offended.

 

[lister]

You might try turning that one round on them. If they can't answer, then it shows who is 'closed minded' around there.

Yes I've tried. It never gets answered.
No basic question that requires them to actually think gets answered. It's pretty much the same with the woos what appear on this board. You just end up going round and round in circles while they selectively ignore stuff .

Very very occasionally I will get someone of reasonable intelligence who will attempt to answer my questions, but when they get too hard they always just run off to their pet homeopath and parrot what they're told.

 

[lister]

I'm female and I've been jeered off many forums in the past 15 years for being a skeptic.

That's what gets me down the most I think. We're being persecuted and ridiculed because we actually think about things.

 

[lister]

Instead, continue to politely point out your well-supported arguments and sources, and hope that maybe the occasional new member will be receptive to it

Yes, that's what I keep telling myself. Maybe I will convince the silent fence sitters.

and that some owners who try homeopathy without success will report their anecdotal evidence, too.

If only!
On a 3000 member board, I am the only person who EVER posts negatively about homeopathy.

Thanks for your reply BTW. Some good advice. Like I said, it's this forum that keep me sane.

 

[RSLancastr]

I have heard (but have no statistics to back this up) that certain types of woo (astrology, talking to the dead, etc) attract mostly women, whereas other types (conspiracy theories, UFOs, EVP) attract mostly men.

Just where homeopathy falls in that specturm, I have no idea.

I think that women are more prone to some of these things because they are encouraged from a young age to "think with their heart." But that's just my theory.

As far as getting jeered by Believers: you just have to find a level of that sort of thing which you are comfortable with. Some people want none of it, and generally keep their skepticism to themselves. Others thrive on it to the point of being more confrontational than is helpful.

 

[Dunstan]

Yes, that's what I keep telling myself. Maybe I will convince the silent fence sitters.

You often have more allies than you think.

A couple of months ago, I was at a small party at the apartment of a couple I know. It turns out that one of the other guests was an "alternative medicine practitioner." I sat there suffering in silence at having to hold in my thoughts -- and really, I don't think I had much choice. When you're a guest in someone else's home, you really can't tell a fellow guest -- especially one who is a childhood friend of the hostess -- that you think her entire livelihood is a crock.

But when she started advising one of my friends at the party not to microwave his food, I asked a few "innocent" questions about what was theory behind this claim, was there any evidence to support it, etc. (I wasn't 100% sure this was nonsense anyway, so I wasn't going to go overboard in challenging it.) Of course, all she had was "I don't know" and "I think I read something on the internet about it," and she dropped the subject.

Anyway, the point of my long-winded story is that later that evening when we were out on the patio and out of her earshot, a couple of other guests thanked me for saying what they'd been thinking, too.

It would not surprise me if there are posters and lurkers on your message board who agree with what you're doing, but are afraid to say so publicly given the grief you've been getting.

 

[Dunstan]

I have heard (but have no statistics to back this up) that certain types of woo (astrology, talking to the dead, etc) attract mostly women, whereas other types (conspiracy theories, UFOs, EVP) attract mostly men.

I believe Shermer covers this in the final chapters of Why People Believe Weird Things, which may be where you read it, too. I don't have my copy handy, so I can't give you the numbers on homeopathy.

 

[Miss Whiplash]

Just where homeopathy falls in that specturm, I have no idea.

I think homeopathy appeals to women as they are still the primary care givers when illness strikes. Also, as the care giver, they are more likely to influence other family members into following the path of homeopathy. That's just my opinion.

 

[lister]

As far as getting jeered by Believers: you just have to find a level of that sort of thing which you are comfortable with. Some people want none of it, and generally keep their skepticism to themselves. Others thrive on it to the point of being more confrontational than is helpful.

I guess I would just like to discuss the merits of such things without being jeered at all. I go out of my way to be polite and non-confrontational, but it seems some people take any suggestion that goes against their world view as an out and out attack.
But given the alternative of staying silent and letting disinformation be spread then it looks like my future contains jeering

 

[mac]

Sometimes one has to accept that speaking one's mind with the intention of changing another's is a very steep uphill hike. It's exhausting. I've learned that I can say my piece and not feel offended with the eye rolling and the scoffing. I do find that woos seem to be more agressive than I, and I'm sure that at times my amazement at the level of gulibility presented has been mistaken for amazement in being faced with the "truth" of woo. Sometimes I get impatient. One thing is for sure, though, those conversations are, thankfully, never very long.

 

[gumboot]

That's what gets me down the most I think. We're being persecuted and ridiculed because we actually think about things.

And yet the human race is so convinced it has come so far since the Middle Ages.

She's a Witch! Burn her!



-Andrew

 

[Mad Hom]

I am an aggressive skeptic and as such enjoy a good scrum with Tru-Bleever now and again. I enjoy making them look like asses in front of other people,I enjoy making them say......."Uhhh...well I don't know" ,and even while I understand that most will never change their stance or position on INSERT WOO HERE I continue to ask the uncomfortable questions of them hoping one will eventually start to use their heads for something other than an ear seperater.

 

[Wowbagger]

Hell, being a skeptic is what gets me up in the morning! I have a sense of control over my life!

If I found out that my whole life was a sham to only entertain some "god", then I would be depressed.

 

[RSLancastr]

I guess I would just like to discuss the merits of such things without being jeered at all.

Good luck with that!

But given the alternative of staying silent and letting disinformation be spread then it looks like my future contains jeering

Good for you.

Know that if you can keep level-headed about it, others will notice. As was said earlier, they quite often are the lurkers. Many of them will notice who in the discussion is being polite and reasonable, and who is being a jerk. That alone will get many to look into what you say.

I've experienced this many times, receiving emails and PMs from people who thanked me for sharing my opinion, and sometimes asking me where they could learn more about what I had said.

If it starts getting you down, take a break from it, and come back refreshed later.

 

[BlackCat]

Sure, at times, being a skeptic gets me down. Like you, I like these forums too, because they help me feel like I'm not crazy.

I've had to learn to "pick my battles" so to say. At first, I was excited to educate people, because I thought people were like me, and wanted to have the correct facts. I soon learned that this is not so. Some people like to wallow in their ignorance.

Example: when I was taking an marketing class, the professor insisted on relating various examples of companies that screwed up when marketing to other countries, because they failed to research the culture. Two that I can think of that he mentioned were the Nova myth, and the Coca-Cola tadpole myth. As the good little student, I emailed the professor with these links and kindly told him that I thought he might be wrong with his examples. His reply (paraphrased): "They misquoted Blunders in International Business. It seems like snope[sic] is in the business of misleading people." He absolutely refused to accept that he might be wrong.

BlackCat

 

[SPQR]

Just remember, Lister, as long as there are forums that promote various kinds of woo, there will be forums like this continuing to seek the truth.

Welcome to the forum as a poster, BTW.

 

[Piggy]

I live in the Deep South, where people wear their ignorance like a badge. It's depressing.

My problem, though, is not so much being "down", but actually being angry, trying not to positively hate the people around me for what they're doing.

The worst is what happens to the kids. I guess they're for me what rabbits are for you, lister.

Just a few weeks ago, a woman at work explained that she was tired b/c she was up all night w/ her baby grandson, who was possessed by a demon. He was coughing and crying and red, but as much as they prayed over him, they couldn't get the demon out of him. It never entered her mind that he might be physically ill, much less to seek a doctor's advice.

What's going to become of that kid? He's already got 2 strikes against him and he's not even 2 years old.

Meanwhile, we have so-called leaders like that lying worm Ralph Reed who perpetuate this kind of thinking and gain money and power from it. And of course our fool of a president who's willing to butcher the world.

It makes me sick. It makes me despair.

I don't see any other way than skepticism. It so clearly works, where philosophies and religions do not. It's hard for me to understand why people cling to nonsensical beliefs, even when I know intellectually why human beings should be vulnerable to them.

Some days, if I could end this sad world, I would.