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Does acupuncture work?

arthwollipot said:
Okay, yeah you got me. Technically, I was drawing a comparison. Even more technically I was drawing a contrast.

Millions of people across the world take it seriously, including - apparently - some of the people posting in this thread. If you don't consider it to be worth discussing, why are you discussing it?
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I never said that. Why should I answer you if you're just going to lie about my posts?
 
I'm adding more from where I left off on page 2:

Yale School of Medicine
Anesthesiology
Pain Management
Acute Pain Service
[snip]
Pain Management Rotation
The chronic pain management rotation takes place at the VA Connecticut Healthcare System in West Haven under the direction of Gerald W. Grass, M.D., chief of the Pain Management Center. Patients with a range of chronic pain states are treated. These include: myofacial pain, neuropathic pain, cervicogenic headache, trigeminal neuralgia, complex regional pain syndromes, herniated disc, post-laminectomy syndrome, spinal stenosis and post-herpetic neuralgia.
When eliminating the cause of pain is not possible, the goal becomes symptom management. We use a team approach with participation from the patients and their families. Treatment modalities may include non-pharmacologic approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, acupuncture, biofeedback, neurofeedback or chiropractic interventions.
[snip]
http://medicine.yale.edu/anesthesiology/archive/divisions/pain.aspx

I have all the abstracts from China. The below is just one.

Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2015 Mar;35(3):305-8.
[Academic thoughts on Practice of acupuncture and moxibustion written by CHEN Jingwen, the acupuncture master in the Republic of China].
[Article in Chinese is found online]
]
Huang W, Li N.
Abstract
Through the collection of Practice of acupuncture and moxibustion written by CHEN Jingwen, the acupuncture master in the Republic of China, the academic characteristics on acupuncture and moxibusiton were analyzed. The literature comparison method was adopted to compare the works of LUO Zhaoju, ZENG Tianzhi and LI Wenxian, etc. at the same period. It was discovered that CHEN Jingwen was the medical master who systematicly brought up the theory of acupoint properties earlier in the modern times. Classifying drugs based on acupoints was his academic feature. Additionally, the compatibility therapy of Chinese medicine was introduced to explain the essential ideas on the acupoints combination. The treatment was determined on the basis of zangxiang theory and the reinforcing and reducing therapy of acupuncture was emphasized in the determination of treatment and prescription. CHEN Jingwen's theory of acupoint property had been stressed and spread among the medical scholars in the Republic of China and he had made the beneficial exploration for the development of modern acupuncture and moxibustion therapy.
PMID: 26062212
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26062212
 
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ViewsofMars said:
I'm adding more from where I left off on page 2:

Yale School of Medicine
Anesthesiology
Pain Management
Acute Pain Service
[snip]
Pain Management Rotation
The chronic pain management rotation takes place at the VA Connecticut Healthcare System in West Haven under the direction of Gerald W. Grass, M.D., chief of the Pain Management Center. Patients with a range of chronic pain states are treated. These include: myofacial pain, neuropathic pain, cervicogenic headache, trigeminal neuralgia, complex regional pain syndromes, herniated disc, post-laminectomy syndrome, spinal stenosis and post-herpetic neuralgia.
When eliminating the cause of pain is not possible, the goal becomes symptom management. We use a team approach with participation from the patients and their families. Treatment modalities may include non-pharmacologic approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, acupuncture, biofeedback, neurofeedback or chiropractic interventions.
[snip]
http://medicine.yale.edu/anesthesiology/archive/divisions/pain.aspx

I have all the abstracts from China. The below is just one.

Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2015 Mar;35(3):305-8.
[Academic thoughts on Practice of acupuncture and moxibustion written by CHEN Jingwen, the acupuncture master in the Republic of China].
[Article in Chinese is found online]
]
Huang W, Li N.
Abstract
Through the collection of Practice of acupuncture and moxibustion written by CHEN Jingwen, the acupuncture master in the Republic of China, the academic characteristics on acupuncture and moxibusiton were analyzed. The literature comparison method was adopted to compare the works of LUO Zhaoju, ZENG Tianzhi and LI Wenxian, etc. at the same period. It was discovered that CHEN Jingwen was the medical master who systematicly brought up the theory of acupoint properties earlier in the modern times. Classifying drugs based on acupoints was his academic feature. Additionally, the compatibility therapy of Chinese medicine was introduced to explain the essential ideas on the acupoints combination. The treatment was determined on the basis of zangxiang theory and the reinforcing and reducing therapy of acupuncture was emphasized in the determination of treatment and prescription. CHEN Jingwen's theory of acupoint property had been stressed and spread among the medical scholars in the Republic of China and he had made the beneficial exploration for the development of modern acupuncture and moxibustion therapy.
PMID: 26062212
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26062212
Click to expand...
Treatment modalities? What does modality mean in this context?

Aren't these treatments?

Sorry, I know I'm being pedantic here, but I do wonder what the author meant modalities. That term means something in my field, but he used it in a different sense.
 
Since all of the favorable acupuncture studies come from China, and all of their experimental subjects are Chinese, the obvious conclusion is that it only works if you are Chinese.
 
applecorped said:
If acupuncture works than tattoo artists should get paid double
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But what if they aren't hitting the "correct" meridians? :)

Which suggests an experiment. Have someone tatooed with an all-body image of the meridian points (if someone will agree on them). Sort of a 1:1, actual size map. I wonder what will happen?
 
ViewsofMars said:
When eliminating the cause of pain is not possible, the goal becomes symptom management. We use a team approach with participation from the patients and their families. Treatment modalities may include non-pharmacologic approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, acupuncture, biofeedback, neurofeedback or chiropractic interventions.
Click to expand...

I woefully wish pseudo-medicine did not attach like a camouflaged vampire to the neck of the ill.

Classifying drugs based on acupoints was his academic feature. Additionally, the compatibility therapy of Chinese medicine was introduced to explain the essential ideas on the acupoints combination. The treatment was determined on the basis of zangxiang theory and the reinforcing and reducing therapy of acupuncture was emphasized in the determination of treatment and prescription. CHEN Jingwen's theory of acupoint property had been stressed and spread among the medical scholars in the Republic of China and he had made the beneficial exploration for the development of modern acupuncture and moxibustion therapy.
PMID: 26062212
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26062212
Click to expand...

Much smog, any point?
 
Sherman Bay said:
But what if they aren't hitting the "correct" meridians? :)

Which suggests an experiment. Have someone tatooed with an all-body image of the meridian points (if someone will agree on them). Sort of a 1:1, actual size map. I wonder what will happen?
Click to expand...

By the sounds of it, each "master of acupuncture" will denounce the map and substitute their own. Chi is a mystery.
 
Donn said:
By the sounds of it, each "master of acupuncture" will denounce the map and substitute their own. Chi is a mystery.
Click to expand...

And this really is the core difference between medicine and medical woo... the "mystery" part being an integral part of the thing instead of something we need to get rid in order to make it better.

Medical Woo proponents and apologist love to bring up various examples of "folk" remedies that later get refined into actual medicine. Teas or other medicinals made from willow bark being used as a pain remedy go all the way back to ancient Sumar. Opiates have been used a painkillers since history started. So forth and so on.

But they conveniently ignore the whole "refined" part. Yes we have an entire medical field built around using opiates. But modern doctors aren't just going to hand you an opium pipe. We refined opium into a more effective, controllable, safer medication we didn't just legalize opium dens and call it a day.* We saw potential in the folk medicine and built off of it, we didn't act like we had found miracle cure ready to go (because we hadn't.)

There's a difference between going to the store and buying a bottle of tested, refined, quality controlled, measurable dosed aspirin and walking outside to the closest willow tree and scraping off bark for a spot of tea when you have a headache.

But with Woo Medicine the whole "mysterious" angle is treated as an integral part of it. As with most Woo at it's core it's an anti-intellectual performance piece, less about anything other then showing off big bad arrogant people who dare to think they know more then you.

If there is some usable medical factor in acupuncture fine, but science will determine what it is and refine it into something more effective and controllable and understood it's not going to stay some old Chinese guy sticking pins into your meridians to balance your Chi.

*Slight hijack. This is why despite supporting them legally and can't stand the medical marijuana folks. Listen stoners medical marijuana does not mean that your local "Sammy Stoners 420 Pot Palace" headshop is going to turn into the damn Mayo Clinic. Sitting around in a Bob Marley t-shirt under a black light poster of a pot leaf smoking a joint is never going to be a medical procedure. They're going to refine it into a pill or an inhaler and the "high" is going to be treated a side effect they are going to be trying to reduce.
 
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arthwollipot said:
You said you weren't taking it seriously. I considered that a synonym.
Click to expand...
Obviously it's not synonymous, since I'm not taking it seriously, but I'm willing to discuss it anyway.

Why accuse me of lying when there may be a reasonable explanation?
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Did it really not occur to you that people often enjoy discussing non-serious topics? I feel like you ignored an obvious charitable interpretation. You have to give if you want to get, I'm afraid.
 
theprestige said:
Obviously it's not synonymous, since I'm not taking it seriously, but I'm willing to discuss it anyway.


Did it really not occur to you that people often enjoy discussing non-serious topics? I feel like you ignored an obvious charitable interpretation. You have to give if you want to get, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
When you accused me of lying, was that not ignoring an obvious charitable interpretation?
 
arthwollipot said:
When you accused me of lying, was that not ignoring an obvious charitable interpretation?
Click to expand...

That would be the give-and-get of the exchange. You chose to set the conversation on an uncharitable footing. And then complained when I did not extend you any charity in return. But let's put all that behind us. You'll say it didn't occur to you that people enjoy discussing non-serious topics, and I'll apologize for misconstruing your innocent mistake, and we will both move on. Deal?
 
ViewsofMars said:
I'm adding more from where I left off on page 2:


]
Huang W, Li N.
Abstract
......... It was discovered that CHEN Jingwen was the medical master who systematicly brought up the theory of acupoint properties earlier in the modern times. .........
PMID: 26062212
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26062212
Click to expand...

Okay, the history of modern acupuncture started with CHEN Jingwen, it was not handed down through the ages.
 
theprestige said:
That would be the give-and-get of the exchange. You chose to set the conversation on an uncharitable footing. And then complained when I did not extend you any charity in return. But let's put all that behind us. You'll say it didn't occur to you that people enjoy discussing non-serious topics, and I'll apologize for misconstruing your innocent mistake, and we will both move on. Deal?
Click to expand...
Fine whatever moving on.
 
casebro said:
Okay, the history of modern acupuncture started with CHEN Jingwen, it was not handed down through the ages.
Click to expand...

TA! Don't you read what I have been providing? There is more papers from China. Anyone with a lick of sense would have been able to find them.

I'll add this first:

The Harvard Medical School and the Department of Medicine at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center is offering a highly regarded, comprehensive, nine-month course in acupuncture for physicians. There is a growing interest among patients and physicians in acupuncture as a therapeutic modality. However physicians have little or no training in either the science or practice of this treatment approach. This unique course provides practical, hands-on training in acupuncture. The training program is designed to bring together Eastern and Western views of health and disease into a results-oriented acupuncture style. Strong emphasis is placed on developing a neuroanatomical understanding of pain modulation with acupuncture. You will learn to evaluate and treat patients using modern palpation-based Japanese acupuncture techniques that link classical Chinese theory to pragmatic diagnostic and treatment methods.
The didactic portion of the course will focus on bridging the gap between acupuncture practice and science. The scientific basis of acupuncture and the methodological problems with acupuncture research is presented as part of the discussion of specific clinical conditions throughout the course. Emphasis is placed on comparing and contrasting research protocols with actual clinical treatment methods. This ongoing scientific discussion will provide participants the tools to better lead future research and clinical endeavors in acupuncture.
To achieve the highest level of academic and clinical teaching excellence, we have brought together distinguished members of the faculty from Harvard Medical School, the Ludwig-Maximilians University of Munich in Germany, the University of Paris and a leader in the field of Japanese acupuncture, David Euler, who is an internationally recognized palpation-based Japanese acupuncture practitioner and an expert in translating the theoretical concepts discussed in classic Chinese acupuncture texts into a pragmatic treatment approach. Our faculty has taught acupuncture both in the United States and abroad for more than 20 years, combining their theoretical knowledge and vast clinical and teaching experience to provide our students with the highest quality instruction.
This course will include an introduction to traditional Chinese medicine with special emphasis on developing an understanding of its practical application to clinical care from a Western perspective. Emphasis is given to “hands-on” point location and needling techniques based upon palpatory feedback, familiarization with the meridian pathways and organ pathology.
The topics of this course will include the following:
[. . .]
Auricular Acupuncture
[. . . ]
Electroacupuncture and Laser acupuncture
[. . .]
Cosmetic Acupuncture
Pediatric Acupuncture

[. . .]
2016 by the President and Fellows of Harvard College
http://cmeregistration.hms.harvard....stom-18-6a95b34d2a5d4eaf80a968485c9a1703.aspx

Hasn't anybody here gone to Harvard?:D
 
ViewsofMars said:
Hasn't anybody here gone to Harvard?:D
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It seems that Harvard also needs extra funding by providing pseudo-scientific courses.

Can you point to actual science papers that shows that acupuncture works better than placebo? Can you point point us to the scientific basis of where exactly the needles need to be set?

Perhaps I should add that generally, Chinese medical papers are not rated highly in science, because they tend to be cherry-picked and uncritical of Chinese Traditional Medicine.
The WHO has held annual workshops about how to create a scientific background to Chinese Traditional Medicine, but the results are small. Besides, WHO is a political organization, and nothing will be produced that upsets member (donor) countries like China. The output from the WHO can be good and it can be bad. Some years ago, it even produced a report that was somewhat sympathetic to homoeopathy.
 
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