Do polygraph tests qualify for the prize?

bpesta22 said:
Respectfully, I disagree that graphology is paranormal. I agree that it don't work, but if it did, any number of existing, well tested pscyhological theories could explain it. No paradigm shift required (unlike with proving esp, numerollogy, astrology or any typical "paranormal" claims)
Have you read any graphology texts?
A lot of what they use to determine the characteristics of the individual are artifacts of schools of handwritting.
The most obvious example I can think of is that forward slanted handwritting implies a driven and forward thinking individual. From the ages of 10 to 12 I and my classmates of the time were taught italic handwritting. Unsuprisingly this did nothing to improve our motivation.

Similarly how you dot your i s and cross your t s is a product of huge range of things from how you hold a pen, to the quality of your hand eye co-ordination to the work of others you have been influenced by.

Graphology isn't about detecting parkinson's by looking for hand tremors. It's a claim that almost all personality traits manifest themselves detectably through handwriting.

I think graphology is directly comparible to phrenology, in both its claims and underlying methodology. Whilest my big nose doesnt mean that I lie all the time, it wouldnt break the laws of physics if truth telling and nose size were linked through brain function in some way.


On the other hand, lie detectors can be compaired to identifying a suspect entirely by eye colour. There is clearly understood mechanism, it does work to a limited degree and returns better results than just guessing. I'd just rather not rely on it.
 
I did browse one that someone gave me a few years back. Seemed utterly flakey.

But, I suppose these could be failed experiments (we are betting on the null hypothesis, when we conclude graphology doesn't work). What if in theory, handwriting anlalyses did predict better than chance one's personality, but the graphologists-- not being scientifically trained-- just don't know how to validate the idea.

This whole issue is motivating me to collect data on the topic, but doing it by "bootstrapping".

Of course this assumes no one's done the experiment before, but would you be willing to bet one million dollars this experiment would fail:

1) Give lots of subjects the NEO (a perfectly valid measure of the big 5 personality traits-- neuroticism, openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness and extraversion).

2) Collect a paragraph (or however long writing sample, on whatever topic graphologists typically use).

3) Code each person's writing samples on objective, reliable things that might vary across people (e.g., mean letter size, mean spacing between letters, degree of slant from zero, proportion of letters that are left open, etc)

4) Conduct a regression analyses on the handwriting variables to see if they predict scores on the five personality factors.

Would it be paranormal / radical / paradigm shifting to test hypotheses like:

highly conscientious people might have some writing characteristics that differ significantly from people low in conscientiousness?

Or that, the highly neurotic people might differ in how they write compared with totally non-neurotics.

These seem like perfectly reasonable hypothesis to me-- certainly not earth shattering like finding people can bend spoons with their mind, or that magnets cure AIDS.

In fact, the two specific hypotheses above seem so reasonable to me, that unless someone's done it before, I'm going to try this fall semester. It'd be real easy to get the data.

I think the difference here is I would be using dustbowl empiricism (the power of regression) to test (versus predefine) what if anything about peoples' writing styles varies with their personalities.

So, the graphologist says "oooo, look at the big fat O he wrote, that means he is a very openminded person.

The above experiement would go in the reverse direction:

The regression shows that conscientious people use more (or less) distance between letters (or even the variability in distance from letter to letter is lower) than do non-C people. Hmmm, how could we explain such a result without redefining physics chemistry and biology (note sarcasm).


The Woo in graphology-- potentially-- comes from making the rules up as you go. The regression equation would go in the reverse direction: given that people do have different writing styles, does their personality explain any of that variance.

Just in 5 minutes of thinking, I've generated (at least imo) two hypothesis that seem reasonable; non controversial even. So much so that if the experiment worked, and I applied for the prize, Randi would not test me.

All assuming it works / hasn't been tried before, but even though I teach MBA students that graphology is utterly worthless and should never be used (for employment decisions), I'd be reluctant to bet 1 million that the above would fail.

At any rate, graphology is not a paranormal claim.








Jekyll said:
Have you read any graphology texts?
A lot of what they use to determine the characteristics of the individual are artifacts of schools of handwritting.
The most obvious example I can think of is that forward slanted handwritting implies a driven and forward thinking individual. From the ages of 10 to 12 I and my classmates of the time were taught italic handwritting. Unsuprisingly this did nothing to improve our motivation.

Similarly how you dot your i s and cross your t s is a product of huge range of things from how you hold a pen, to the quality of your hand eye co-ordination to the work of others you have been influenced by.

Graphology isn't about detecting parkinson's by looking for hand tremors. It's a claim that almost all personality traits manifest themselves detectably through handwriting.

I think graphology is directly comparible to phrenology, in both its claims and underlying methodology. Whilest my big nose doesnt mean that I lie all the time, it wouldnt break the laws of physics if truth telling and nose size were linked through brain function in some way.


On the other hand, lie detectors can be compaired to identifying a suspect entirely by eye colour. There is clearly understood mechanism, it does work to a limited degree and returns better results than just guessing. I'd just rather not rely on it.
 
Suppose I claim that people born under certain star signs are predisposed to have certain personality characteristics.
And that I can achieve an above odds chance of guessing someone's star sign based on psychological profile.

This is prime woo talk and definitely eligible for Randi's million.

Now suppose I dress it up in a vague scientific description and claim that due to seasonally caused hormonal fluctuations in the mother directly before birth a baby's personality can be determined and these seasonal fluctuations correspond almost exactly to star signs.
As such I can claim that I can achieve an above odds chance of guessing someone's star sign based on psychological profile.

This claim does not necessarily defy the laws of physics however I'm sure Randi (under the advice of experts) would willingly accept my shot at the million.

I view graphology in much the same way. Whilst there may well be mental states that lend themselves to being diagnosed through writing (both Parkinson's which I've already mentioned and being overly anal spring to mind). There is no reason to believe that gross personality traits (optimist/pessimist or leader/follower), which are in themselves poor approximations of how someone actually thinks, would be detectable.

Having said all that, please do go and do the experiments. The failures are as important as the successes in science :D.
 
Given all the articles lying around about how to "beat" a polygraph test, I highly doubt that polygraphs should qualify for the test. This goes along with anything phyisically taxing, such as yoga masters being able to fit themselves into a tiny box for a period of time while submerged in a tank of cold water. Such activities, while amazing from a physiological point of view, are not paranormal. Most things that qualify for Guiness (world records, not the stout ) should not qualify for the JREF prize.
 
deathphoenix said:
Given all the articles lying around about how to "beat" a polygraph test, I highly doubt that polygraphs should qualify for the test. This goes along with anything phyisically taxing, such as yoga masters being able to fit themselves into a tiny box for a period of time while submerged in a tank of cold water. Such activities, while amazing from a physiological point of view, are not paranormal. Most things that qualify for Guiness (world records, not the stout ) should not qualify for the JREF prize.

Excellent post, DP - and welcome to the fora. :)
 
Jekyll said:
Suppose I claim that people born under certain star signs are predisposed to have certain personality characteristics.
And that I can achieve an above odds chance of guessing someone's star sign based on psychological profile.

This is prime woo talk and definitely eligible for Randi's million.

Now suppose I dress it up in a vague scientific description and claim that due to seasonally caused hormonal fluctuations in the mother directly before birth a baby's personality can be determined and these seasonal fluctuations correspond almost exactly to star signs.
As such I can claim that I can achieve an above odds chance of guessing someone's star sign based on psychological profile.

This claim does not necessarily defy the laws of physics however I'm sure Randi (under the advice of experts) would willingly accept my shot at the million.

I view graphology in much the same way. Whilst there may well be mental states that lend themselves to being diagnosed through writing (both Parkinson's which I've already mentioned and being overly anal spring to mind). There is no reason to believe that gross personality traits (optimist/pessimist or leader/follower), which are in themselves poor approximations of how someone actually thinks, would be detectable.

Having said all that, please do go and do the experiments. The failures are as important as the successes in science :D.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see how graphology is paranormal.

I don't know enough about physics and astronomy but if your vague hypothesis above were consistent with knowledge in those areas, I don't think it would be a paranormal claim. I doubt highly it would work, but it seems to me to be an emprical question (again, assuming the hypotheses were possible given what science knows in these areas)

You might be surprised at the validity of certain personality tests (i.e., the NEO). Testing psych's come a long way!

Curious how you would explain how the gross personality trait of "need for achievement" predicted how far people stood away from a target in a ring tossing game?

Best

B
 
For what it's worth, I don't view graphology as paranormal either. I see it as wrong, bunk, unfair pseudo-science, etc etc.

That's the same way I view many projective tests.

With that said, bpesta22, I'm having a little trouble following your point. Would you care to state it in a short, precise paragraph?

As far as I know at the moment, I'm in agreement with you. But I'm not sure.

Thank you.
 
bpesta22 said:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see how graphology is paranormal.
I think this might be the sticking point I assumed that it isnt only paranormal claims that are elegible for Randi's prize but also b*llsh*t science that backs up woo claims.
I don't know enough about physics and astronomy but if your vague hypothesis above were consistent with knowledge in those areas, I don't think it would be a paranormal claim. I doubt highly it would work, but it seems to me to be an emprical question (again, assuming the hypotheses were possible given what science knows in these areas)
This is why Randi has to take up claims such as these, otherwise by backing down and leaving it to science to decide (such people will never subject themselves to peer review) he allows them to proclaim the validity of their research. A refusal to test would certainly be proclaimed as proof of legitimacy.

You might be surprised at the validity of certain personality tests (i.e., the NEO). Testing psych's come a long way!

Curious how you would explain how the gross personality trait of "need for achievement" predicted how far people stood away from a target in a ring tossing game?

Best

B
I think that I am just enough of a romantic to remain philosophically opposed to personality tests.

I don't know enough about the test to explain it but I am curious to know more.
How polarised was the group of individuals? What was the criteria for possession of trait? What does where people stand in a ring tossing game actually tell you about them?

I fully admit I know almost nothing about this area of science so if you could throw me a link to the paper on this test or a good summary of current thought I'd be grateful.
Thanks,

Jekyll
 
In the process of moving so can't continute the debate, assuming anyone's still interest in it.

In the meantime, just curious, by vote how many here consider graphology to be a paranormal claim?
 
bpesta22 said:
In the process of moving so can't continute the debate, assuming anyone's still interest in it.

In the meantime, just curious, by vote how many here consider graphology to be a paranormal claim?

It can't be paranormal! Everyone knows that the allignment of the stars and planets at your birth are what determines your personality and life, graphology can only be the reading of the reflection of that.
Therefore graphology=astrology=perfectly normal and explainable.
Riiiggghhhttt!:p
 
A serious question...

Would anyone be willing to provide a non-sarcastic, non-ridiculing explanation of exactly why graphology is considered paranormal, rather than merely fraudulent or ignorant or an incorrect manner of judging character?

Does graphology=astrology? I didn't know that. I would agree that graphology might come under the heading of pseudo-science. But I don't see pseudo-science and the paranormal as synonymous. Am I incorrect?

Would anyone care to enlighten me on this subject?


Gayle
 
I think graphology is very similar to personality testing. It is not completely bogus (like astrology or tarot readings), but it is certainly way overstated how much information can be usefully obtained by it.

When you take a personality test, there are 2-3 questions that give obvious answers about your personality. For example, "When you go to a party, do you mingle and talk to people or do you hide in a corner and leave early?"
From just answering this question, we can clearly say whether you are introverted or extroverted.

Since this is question is basically asking directly about the behaviour that traditionally defines introvert vs. extrovert, it doesn't really tell you anything new. It does make a nice lead in to describing a personality, since it is relatively obvious. It is often mistaken, in that it divides everyone into two categories, but that's what personality typing is all about. You will notice that most personality profiles start with this "fact" about you, to add credibility to the garbage that follows it.

Graphology is similar in that there are some quite basic things that can be determined from your handwriting. Although, graphologists have an unfortunate habit of extrapolating huge amounts of bogus traits beyond what can really be identified.

Once they get past things like how neat/messy your writing is, you are getting into more serious woo-ism. Think about the graphologists that analyze letters from serial killers. They never manage to give any useful information. Hmmm, does that remind you of any psychics?

This is why people say it is "paranormal". If graphologists stuck to "you write very precisely" or "you often don't complete letters so you're in a hurry" they would be more credible. Instead, they somehow divine that you have problems with your mother and fantasize about mustard. (Just for example, I mean, so I've heard...);)
 
Re: A serious question...

Gayle said:
Would anyone be willing to provide a non-sarcastic, non-ridiculing explanation of exactly why graphology is considered paranormal, rather than merely fraudulent or ignorant or an incorrect manner of judging character?

Graphology is a form of divination, and has approximately a 2000+ year history as such (the graphologists are fond of citing their connections to Aristotle and the ancient chinese). The first "real" book on graphology, "How To Judge the Nature and the Character of a Person from His Letter," was written in 1622 by an Italian physician, well before the advent of "psychology" as a scientific discipline.

Like most other divinatory systems, the way it "works" fundamentally involves looking at a complex process, identifying subregularities, and then ignoring all the rest of the counter-evidence.

There is no known causal process that can explain it, and a very good causal process that can explain how it can't work (as Jekyll put it, "a lot of what they use to determine the characteristics of the individual are artifacts of schools of handwritting.")

Furthermore, the experiments you cite have been done. There is actually a very large and well-funded (and scientifically respectably) field of practice called "questioned documents examination," or more generally "document analysis." These are the people the cops call in when they need to know whether or not a given person wrote a specific documents. You know the sort of questions : Is Aunt May's will genuine, or a forgery? Did the shooting victim really write this suicide note, or is it a plant to cover up a murder? Is the signature on this contract valid?

One of the things that these people cannot do is identify characteristics of the writer. I could hand them a piece of paper, and they couldn't even tell me if the author was male or female, if the author was black or white, or whether the author had been educated in the United States or in Europe. They are completely incapable of drawing a detailed psychological profile from these writing, the way graphologists claim to -- but they recognize that the best they can do is to identify how someone was taught to write (which textbooks they used, etc.) a small percentage of the time.

If there were any valid science behind graphology, lawyers would use it. The fact that they don't speaks much more loudly than a hypothetical "let's do a post-hoc analysis and see what artefacts our data-mining can imagine."
 
Re: Re: A serious question...

new drkitten said:
Graphology is a form of divination, and has approximately a 2000+ year history as such (the graphologists are fond of citing their connections to Aristotle and the ancient chinese). The first "real" book on graphology, "How To Judge the Nature and the Character of a Person from His Letter," was written in 1622 by an Italian physician, well before the advent of "psychology" as a scientific discipline.



So, it has a 2000 year history of Woo. Should we discount modern medicine because doctors way back when used leaches to cure diseases?

Like most other divinatory systems, the way it "works" fundamentally involves looking at a complex process, identifying subregularities, and then ignoring all the rest of the counter-evidence.

There is no known causal process that can explain it, and a very good causal process that can explain how it can't work (as Jekyll put it, "a lot of what they use to determine the characteristics of the individual are artifacts of schools of handwritting.")


Just because you personally can't think of a causal process to explain it doesn't mean other people couldn't. As I mentioned before, finding that personality influences handwriting could be easily accounted for by social / cognitive theories.


Furthermore, the experiments you cite have been done. There is actually a very large and well-funded (and scientifically respectably) field of practice called "questioned documents examination," or more generally "document analysis." These are the people the cops call in when they need to know whether or not a given person wrote a specific documents.

One of the things that these people cannot do is identify characteristics of the writer. I could hand them a piece of paper, and they couldn't even tell me if the author was male or female, if the author was black or white, or whether the author had been educated in the United States or in Europe. They are completely incapable of drawing a detailed psychological profile from these writing, the way graphologists claim to -- but they recognize that the best they can do is to identify how someone was taught to write (which textbooks they used, etc.) a small percentage of the time.

I am aware of this type of handwriting analysis, but it wasn't what I was talking about (and, I do remember reading a journal article that showed one can tell gender significantly better than chance by analyzing handwriting).

What makes me interested in this now-- I must not have been clear above-- is trying to validate graphology by doing it the right way.

Instead of having people (woo"s) use their intuition to decide what variation in handwriting means, let a computer do it.

In other words, come in with no theory whatsover, and just ask the empirical question: *Does variation in handwriting correlate with variation in personality.*

So, again, I wouldn't rely on any existing version of graphology out there (because I assume they're based on woo and intuition and confirmation bias)

The hypothesis I "*'d" above is an empirical question, and how people conclude its a paranormal claim is freeking me out (perhaps we need to agree to disagree again).


I agree that if G were valid, lots of people would use it. I just think (unless the study's been done and I haven't found it) no one's trully fairly tested it (again, by letting regression dictate which variations in writing are important, and what they mean).
 
Thank you for the serious responses to my question.

bpesta, have you considered applying for the challenge? Deja and the GSIC fiasco seem to indicate that one does not have to be a True Believer in order to apply.

In my opinion, a fair test will show that graphology is bogus. However, I do think it could possibly determine gender or certain extreme characteristics above the level of chance. Maybe.

Several employers in my area routinely ask for handwritten cover letters with applications. I thought that was to determine legibility in a job where handwritten notes were necessary. I have subsequently been told that the employers use a graphologist to help them choose who to hire. I don't know if this is true or just a rumor. If it's true, my gosh, it seems like it would represent some kind of employment discrimination of the worst sort.

This thread has motivated me to ask the business reporter for our local paper to look into it. If he does a story, I'll post a link here. Please don't hold your breath. There are three layers of editors to go through and the advertising department.

Gayle
 
Hi Gayle.

I'm quite sure graphology as it exists today is invalid junk science. I happen to teach HR courses, and the issue comes up in selection.

I tell students it has "zero validity to two decimal points".

Less than 1% of American companies use it for hiring, but I've seen #s indicating abouy 10% of European firms use it-- and they are asking applicants to handwrite their cover letters to make it easier to submit them to graphology.

Two things I need to check:

1) how time consuming it would be to code handwriting / can I get a grad student to help

2) has this been done before.

Right now; just moved, so this will be a later summer / fall project, hopefully!

B



Gayle said:
Thank you for the serious responses to my question.

bpesta, have you considered applying for the challenge? Deja and the GSIC fiasco seem to indicate that one does not have to be a True Believer in order to apply.

In my opinion, a fair test will show that graphology is bogus. However, I do think it could possibly determine gender or certain extreme characteristics above the level of chance. Maybe.

Several employers in my area routinely ask for handwritten cover letters with applications. I thought that was to determine legibility in a job where handwritten notes were necessary. I have subsequently been told that the employers use a graphologist to help them choose who to hire. I don't know if this is true or just a rumor. If it's true, my gosh, it seems like it would represent some kind of employment discrimination of the worst sort.

This thread has motivated me to ask the business reporter for our local paper to look into it. If he does a story, I'll post a link here. Please don't hold your breath. There are three layers of editors to go through and the advertising department.

Gayle
 
Re: Re: Re: A serious question...

bpesta22 said:
So, it has a 2000 year history of Woo. Should we discount modern medicine because doctors way back when used leaches to cure diseases?

No, but we should discount the four humour theory as woo when it's been examined scientifically, found wanting, and abandoned by the people doing actual medicine.



In other words, come in with no theory whatsover, and just ask the empirical question: *Does variation in handwriting correlate with variation in personality.*

So, again, I wouldn't rely on any existing version of graphology out there (because I assume they're based on woo and intuition and confirmation bias)

The hypothesis I "*'d" above is an empirical question, and how people conclude its a paranormal claim is freeking me out (perhaps we need to agree to disagree again).


And, again, this puts graphology in exactly the epistemological position of astrology or crystal hugging.

I can just as easily phrase an empirical question : *Does variation in date and time of birth correlate with variation in personality?*

Or, alternatively, *Does variation in the direction in which a suspended pendulum swings when placed over the stomach of a pregnant woman correlated with (variation in) the sex of the unborn child?*

Or, again, *Does variation in carrying a rabbit's foot and walking under ladders correlate with variation in unpleasant events happening to the person concerned?*

Merely phrasing a woo hypothesis as an empirical question does not, in and of itself, make it not woo, although I admit that most practitioners are unwilling even to examine the issues this closely and objectively. But merely running a controlled study to see if lucky charms work doesn't make lucky charms any less magical or paranormal.

What makes graphology paranormal is the associated magical belief system and two thousand year history of ignoring science in favor of superstition. What makes it woo is the failure of the graphologists to grapple seriously with the issues that might begin to make it not-woo.

Even the way you phrase your research hypothesis is deeply suspect:


What makes me interested in this now-- I must not have been clear above-- is trying to validate graphology by doing it the right way.

Why does it need to be "validated"? Why do you assume that there is an effect there that needs to be uncovered and validated? It's been looked at -- extensively (check the forensics literature) -- and has never had any useful effectiveness.

Is there a single epistemological issue (and no, "finding that personality influences handwriting could be easily accounted for by social / cognitive theories" doesn't count -- that's simply an argument from ignorance) on which the validity of graphology as a method of personality divination differs from astronomy, or from the examination of the entrails of birds, or from reading tea leaves?

Graphology is dead. Why indulge in necromancy?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: A serious question...

new drkitten said:
Graphology is dead. Why indulge in necromancy? [/B]

Because arrogant people in this thread are telling me it can't be done.

Plus, I think it's likely to work-- or at least the probability imo is high enough that I feel it's worth throwing time at.

Just thinking of the most extreme manipulation possible: Groups of highly neurotic people versus groups who score way low on neuroticism.

Or groups of high conscientious / low extraverts compared with low conscientious / high extraverts.

Would it be shocking; world-view altering, to find that dependable, responsible, shy people write somewhat differently (but significantly differenty) than undependable, irresponsible outgoing people? I think it could almost be predicted based on common sense. But again it's an empirical question.

BTW, just curious what you found suspect about my hypoethis in the last post.

***

Plus, if it did work, I think I could get a nice publication which helps toward tenure.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A serious question...

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