Disprove Scriptural inspiration

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disprove Scriptural inspiration

frisian said:


It is incomplete.

Yes, many things are incomplete, but that doesn't equate with inferior, bad, or worthless.

I'd like to find the method of knowledge that is complete. :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disprove Scriptural inspiration

T'ai Chi said:


Yes, many things are incomplete, but that doesn't equate with inferior, bad, or worthless.

I'd like to find the method of knowledge that is complete. :)

I don't recall claiming anything incomplete as bad or worthless. I do find incompletes concepts inferior to complete ones however.

I would also like to find that, thus the reason I don't stop and quit, or care to merely accept incomplete methods.
 
As far as Ockham's Razor, for pratical purposes it works well. Still not following how it reaches conclusions in regards to discussions revolving around supernatural entities.

Occam's Razor doesn't reach conclusions about the supernatural. The Razor is used to temporarily eliminate certain unlikely possibilities to better focus on the remaining possibilities which have been deemed more likely to be correct. More specifically, possibilities which require the invention of something that has yet to be theorized or possibilities which require a further layer of investigation should be eliminated from the research until the more simple and likely possibilities have been explored. Should they turn out to be incorrect, the previously eliminated possibilities will be reevaluated.

For example, say I'm eating cookies while watching TV on Christmas Eve. After eating my fill, I leave the remaining cookie box on the table next to my chair, forgetting about them when I go to bed. The next morning, I find the cookies have disappeared!

Popular folklore would insist that Santa Clause had been in my livingroom some time between my going to sleep and my awakening.

On the other hand, I have a roommate who frequently kills the bottom of the cookie boxes in my absense.

I also have two cats who are notorious cookie bandits, especially in the dark when nobody is around to yell at them.

Here I have three theories to work with. Which one should I pursue first?

Occam's Razor would temporarily eliminate the first theory, since Santa Clause is not currently accepted as an actual entity. To examin the Santa theory, I would first have to investigate and prove (or disprove) Santa's existance. Since this path would be far more difficult to explore than the two other theories, we'll simply set that one aside for now.

The second theory is worth exploring, since it is relatively easy to investigate quickly. I knock on my roommate's bedroom and discover he isn't home. I remember that he is in California for the holidays, and I spoke to him eight hours ago when he called from there to remind me to feed the cats.

Knowing that it is highly unlikely that he would have travelled that distance in that amount of time, Occam's Razor would again slice that theory from the table. It would require extreme circumstances for this theory to be true, so we'll instead move on to theory number three.

Note that we haven't ruled the first two theories out; we've simply set them aside as not yet worth pursuing. There is still one more theory, and this theory is quite simple to investigate. It is far better to quickly investigate this third theory, (which can be completed in seconds), than to waste time by first working on the two theories that we already know are far less likely.

Theory number three, the cats. Remembering that I hadn't fed the cats the night before, I peek behind the table. Not surprisingly, the box is on the floor. Upside down and surrounded by scattered crumbs, the box rests next to a sleeping cat who still has a cookie crumb in his whisker.

At this point, I think it's safe to conclude that the cat ate my cookies. Had I instead decided to pursue the Santa Clause theory, I would still be quite far from finding out where my cookies went. Thanks to Occam's Razor, I went with the most likely theory first, and saved myself centuries of investigation.

Here's where the Razor affects supernatural theories...

For every event that has been investigated, there can be mundane theories or there can be supernatural theories. In every case, the supernatural has been shown as far less likely to be the true theory and far more difficult to investigate. So, the mundane theory is the first one to be investigated. So far, no case has required the supernatural theory to be reevaluated.

Simply looking back and seeing that the supernatural has yet to be shown as a) existing and b) the correct theory, we can easily eliminate the supernatural theories from future investigations. This doesn't say anything about the supernatural other than it has yet to be shown as necessary to explain anything. The Razor rule says nothing about the supernatural itself, only that supernatural theories are less likely and should not be the first on the list to evaluate.

This example only attempts to give a layman's explaination on the function of the Razor. For more solid explainations on the Razor and the man behind the name, check out

http://skepdic.com/occam.html

Or do a websearch.
 
ArmchairPhysicist said:
Here's where the Razor affects supernatural theories...
Unless and until you can devise a pertinent and meaningful definition of simplicity, or give reasons why concepts of parsimony would or could map to a purported supernatural realm, Occam's Razor is irrelevant. Rather, ...
In contrasting the Western religions with science, the most important criterion of distinction is that the supernatural or spiritual realm is unknowable ... Given this fiat by the theistic believers, science simply ignores the supernatural as being outside the scope of scientific inquiry. Scientists in effect are saying:
  • You religious believers set up your postulates as truths, and we take you at your word. By definition, you render your beliefs unassailable and unavailable.
This attitude is not one of surrender, but simply an expression of the logical impossibility of proving the existence of something about which nothing can possibly be known through scientific investigation.

- Understanding Science: An Introduction to Concepts and Issues by Arthur N. Strahler
 
ReasonableDoubt said:
Unless and until you can devise a pertinent and meaningful definition of simplicity, or give reasons why concepts of parsimony would or could map to a purported supernatural realm, Occam's Razor is irrelevant.

In the words of C.S. Lewis... its easy to be simple when you've got no facts to deal with.

Paraphrased words at least.

In regards to people saying Christianity should be simpler because simplicity is beautiful, blah blah blah...
 
"In contrasting the Western religions with science, the most important criterion of distinction is that the supernatural or spiritual realm is unknowable ... Given this fiat by the theistic believers, science simply ignores the supernatural as being outside the scope of scientific inquiry. Scientists in effect are saying:
You religious believers set up your postulates as truths, and we take you at your word. By definition, you render your beliefs unassailable and unavailable.
This attitude is not one of surrender, but simply an expression of the logical impossibility of proving the existence of something about which nothing can possibly be known through scientific investigation."

- Understanding Science: An Introduction to Concepts and Issues by Arthur N. Strahler

If the natural and supernatural "collide" I would think that indeed some can be known.

Nice broad, vague assertions... theistic believers. So that encompasses all of them?

Seems to me it is merely not understanding the variables. Indeed it is an attitude of surrender.
 
Perhaps not having an understanding of the OP in this thread, could complicate things.

It is fairly self evident so I won't bother merely copying and pasting.
 
sparklecat,

Regarding the original point, it seems that Walt has covered it well - Paul is stating that the words he will deliver are "his", and not simply a retelling of words spoken by Jesus. That doesn't mean, however, that Paul's thoughts are not 'inspired'. In fact, it kind of works in reverse - the only reason Paul's letters are in the bible is because they were examined by the early church and found to be 'inspired'. If they'd failed that test, then the letters would have been omitted.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disprove Scriptural inspiration

frisian said:
I do find incompletes concepts inferior to complete ones however.

Please name a concept that is complete, and why you think it is complete.
 
sparklecat said:
Or maybe they're both english translations of the same root word? One just being more of a paraphrase.

Sparkle, the blueletterbible linked verses all have a button link for the Strongs number of each word in the verse.

- edited to add (which I now know you know from the link to Revelation thread) :D
 
ReasonableDoubt said:

Nice straw man -- "collide" no less. :D You really need to get over yourself.

Heh.

Get over myself? Hell you haven't even met me yet.

Straw man? Perhaps just bad poetry.
 
Originally posted by frisian
14 generations having 5 kids each, would get you over a billion.
That's 5 kids per person. Meaning 10 kids per couple. And nobody can get sick and die before they have their 10 kids.
 

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