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Did Jesus really exist?

DOC said:
Not too many wars now are there in North America, South America and Europe (All who celebrate Christmas). I imagine if the European countries never came over there would be at least 20 wars going on now in North and South America. Not to mention the human sacrifice and canibalism that might still be occurring.
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forgive me for asking, are you saying here that the bible dosn't contain human sacrifice? Hellooooooo!

although I'd allow that the actual eating of human flesh isn't practiced, the doctrine allows for its representation very strongly, or have you never taken communion?
And are you saying the atrocities that occurred on both sides are all Jesus' fault.
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Well if he was all powerful , all knowing et al., then yes, either because he allowed it to happen and did nothing. thats a bit like, er, not so compassionate is it?

And i'm sure you could find actual attrocities commited by the church in recent history that far out weigh what one might imagine, or do you reckon that jesus wasn't responsible for those either?
 
DOC said:
How about most of Europe, North America, and South America, just had national holidays celebrating the birth of a Jew who died at age 33, 2000 years ago. How's that for evidence.
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Er no. They celebrated a mid-Winter festival that existed long before they were introduced to christianity and that the church completely failed to wipe-out so claimed as their own.

For an even better example of this see Easter. Ressurrection of Christ? Er no, Spring festival to the pagan goddess of Spring called, wait for it, Eostre. And what was the symbol of this goddess of rebirth I hear you ask. Funnily enough, an egg.
 
Well,.. obviously Jesus never existed at all.

Instead it was all a dastardly conspiracy by some people for some reason that some people might know about or understand, but the rest of humanity would be rightly skeptical about.
 
plumjam said:
Well,.. obviously Jesus never existed at all.

Instead it was all a dastardly conspiracy by some people for some reason that some people might know about or understand, but the rest of humanity would be rightly skeptical about.
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Strawman, argument from disbelief, with a little false dichotomy thrown in for good measure.
 
plumjam said:
Are you a (dread the thought) conspiracy theorist then?
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False dichotomy.

Nevermind. I'll save that topic for a future thread.
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No doubt. I fully expect it will take the form of another meaningless hypothetical choice between two completely unrealistic options that doesn't prove anything either way.
 
plumjam said:
Well,.. obviously Jesus never existed at all.

Instead it was all a dastardly conspiracy by some people for some reason that some people might know about or understand, but the rest of humanity would be rightly skeptical about.
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Is that really the only alternative to a real, historical Jesus as portrayed in scripture that you can come up with?
 
DOC said:
Not too many wars now are there in North America, South America and Europe (All who celebrate Christmas). I imagine if the European countries never came over there would be at least 20 wars going on now in North and South America. Not to mention the human sacrifice and canibalism that might still be occurring.
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Plenty of church authorized witch burning and torture in Europe in the name of Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism seems it was everywhere...including ritual catholicism.

No wars in China either...but there was Vietnam...and Iraq now--perhaps not on our shores, but the US is/was there. Please don't try and tell me Vietnam was a good thing for their people; and Iraq is certainly not a walk in the sunshine.

Now for Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

As you can see, Europe has not be a peaceful place...how many of those wars were fought with religious or cultural elitism in mind.

What makes you believe that wars would permeate America if the Europeans did not take over?


And are you saying the atrocities that occurred on both sides are all Jesus' fault.
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The conquistadors had no problem committing genocide in Jesus name--elitist and self-rightous. Is there anything morally correct about this?

Have you asked Native Americans if they feel better for having being conquered?

glenn

Donner Party of 89... 88 ....etc...
 
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Plumjam... obviously the Mormon Gold Plates existed... a teen age boy can't make up that stuff, and besides there were 11 witnesses... and millions of Mormons can't be basing their burning bosom of inner knowingness of something that never existed can they?

And if engrams weren't real, how do you account for Tom Cruise's stellar success after working Scientology and clearing them.

I want to know if there is a reason to believe that Jesus is more than thetans and more than the gold plates... I can readily think of reasons as to how people can justify that he must have existed after his supposed death... I just want to know if there is actually any evidence that such a person walked the earth--and if so... what stuff attributed to him is true. Clearly, he was not born of a virgin and he did not become a zombie and he wasn't killed as a blood atonement plan regarding his invisible dad's punishment over some long ago apple eating travesty.
 
Foster Zygote said:
Is that really the only alternative to a real, historical Jesus as portrayed in scripture that you can come up with?
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Well, he's pretty immersed in his theism... brain connects do tend to wither without use. I suspect that is the best he can come up with...
 
Here's a different way to phrase the question.

Assuming Jesus really existed, what evidence is there that he was anything more than some poor cult leader who got himself executed?
 
DOC said:
Alright I'll ask for a source. And if I was living in occupied Roman Empire lands I'd be kind of nervous putting my name on a Gospel that thumbs it nose at Roman gods by saying there is only one God. It was quite a dangerous place to be a Christian back then as 10 of the ll apostles who got killed would attest to.
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I really don't have time to search for the quote. But the source is; ''Who Wrote The New Testament?''
by ~Burton L. Mack.~~~1989.
 
If you read the gospels properly you will find that they go out of their way to exonerate the Romans for any blame for the crucifiction of Jesus. The blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of the Jews which has led to their victimisation for more than 2000 years.
Remembering that most of the Roman religious festivals were replaced by christian ones, even before Constatine's replacing of Roman [Pagan] religion with the christian one.
 
Silentknight said:
Here's a different way to phrase the question.

Assuming Jesus really existed, what evidence is there that he was anything more than some poor cult leader who got himself executed?
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Practically none. We can only speculate there might have been some poor sucker who caused the authorities to notice him by causing some stir in the scheme of things that upset the Romans thereby executing him. We really have no proof whatsoever that a man as described in the gospels ever existed. Let alone a magical being as described in the same sources.
Take the magic out of Muhammad's existence, there is more proof he actually existed than of Jesus.
 
Did Jesus exist?
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who really cares? other than some board posting fools?

I mean, I have food to cook, garbage to take out, and my dog, "Moses" wants to go 'outside' and chase some deer.

Get a grip.

Life is real.......◊◊◊◊ happens.......Jesus is my neighbor! (he may be illegal)

Peace
 
XBoxWarrior said:
who really cares? other than some board posting fools?

I mean, I have food to cook, garbage to take out, and my dog, "Moses" wants to go 'outside' and chase some deer.

Get a grip.

Life is real.......◊◊◊◊ happens.......Jesus is my neighbor! (he may be illegal)

Peace
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Ha, ha, hah. :D I named my dog Jesus. And when calling him; ''Jesus get over here''. My next door neighbor who is a mormon gave me a stern lecture of my sinful ways and danger of eternal damnation. When I explained I was an atheist, and din't give a hoot. I now dont even get a good morning anymore. Moral; don't name your dog Jesus. :)
 
Silentknight said:
Here's a different way to phrase the question.

Assuming Jesus really existed, what evidence is there that he was anything more than some poor cult leader who got himself executed?
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We have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have that one cell living organisms evolved over time from non-living chemicals.

We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.

Here are two sites that talk about evidence for the resurrection:

http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_troc/

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
 
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