Did Jesus Exist?

[Mercutio]

And is this a deliberate attempt to be stupid on your part or, is it designed to get me angry?

Was it a deliberate attempt to be stupid or to induce anger when you asked it of him?

I do not see Pahansiri's question as either of the options you listed, but rather a legitimate attempt to get you to examine the types of questions you ask and the types of answers you give. If you see it as more, perhaps you should look to yourself.

 

[Pahansiri]

And is this a deliberate attempt to be stupid on your part or, is it designed to get me angry?

What, you believe that I believe in this "non-existent" being? Whoa ... Isn't that a big leap of faith?

Oh, I honestly believe that you believe what you believe. So what? Aside from that though, I think you're full of crap.

Hey, that's not the problem in the least. The problem is when someone deliberately tries to get you angry, just so you can play this little game with them. Ha ha ha ha ha! The joke is always on you my friend!

I asked the following “May I ask your question to you Do you know whether the God you believe in truly exists or not? Like hell you do!”


You rather then answer with a yes or no responded in the following way.

And is this a deliberate attempt to be stupid on your part or, is it designed to get me angry?

Why is it you believe I am for asking you a simple question? I you asked me that question and I responded that No I can not prove your God is real or any god or big foot but I respect you believe it.

Then I ask you if you can prove your God exist and you can only call me stupid? Sad.

As to making you angry, I have no power to make you angry or happy only you have such power over yourself and emotions.

What, you believe that I believe in this "non-existent" being? Whoa ... Isn't that a big leap of faith?

I said non-proven belief. The leap of faith is yours my friend.

Oh, I honestly believe that you believe what you believe. So what? Aside from that though, I think you're full of crap.

I am full of crap that a discussion board is for discussions ???lol You know I can almost picture your face turning red and you stomping your feet..

Hey, that's not the problem in the least. The problem is when someone deliberately tries to get you angry, just so you can play this little game with them. Ha ha ha ha ha! The joke is always on you my friend!

So it is your belief that if anyone ask you to prove what you say is true that are just trying to make you mad???

 

[Iacchus]

Was it a deliberate attempt to be stupid or to induce anger when you asked it of him?

I do not see Pahansiri's question as either of the options you listed, but rather a legitimate attempt to get you to examine the types of questions you ask and the types of answers you give. If you see it as more, perhaps you should look to yourself.

Hey, I honestly believe you believe what you believe. Aside from that though ... and, although I have no means for establishing what you say, unless of course I establish it for myself, you're a lunatic.

No, this is not the best way to approach an argument. Especially when it involves something you don't know whether it's true or not.

 

[Pahansiri]

Hey, I honestly believe you believe what you believe. Aside from that though ... and, although I have no means it for establishing what you say, unless of course I establish for myself, you're a lunatic.

No, this is not the best way to approach an argument.

Nice try my friend but not at all how I conduct myself.

I have said I respect you. I respect you have a belief and I respect your right to this belief and even the belief as I can not prove it wrong.

I also say I see no evidence of it being true and being you are the holder of the belief and demand it is truth the burden of proof that it is truth is yours.

If it is said as a statement of belief I respect as that and if one would wish to debate it we could exchange ideas and thoughts.

If it is a statement of fact you need support this assertion with the supporting facts or logical conclusion. You need also expect interactions testing this belief. It seems you seek only to preach and wish only followers.

 

[Iacchus]

So it is your belief that if anyone ask you to prove what you say is true that are just trying to make you mad???

As I have said, and I continue to say, I can't prove anything to you or, to anyone else. And, that the only way we can prove things, is to ourselves. So there's no reason why I should have to go out of my way to prove anything to you.

 

[Pahansiri]

As I have said, and I continue to say, I can't prove anything to you or, to anyone else. And, that the only way we can prove things, is to ourselves. So there's no reason why I should have to go out of my way to prove anything to you.

I agree to a point I do believe of course there are things we can prove. But greatly so you are right as I have pointed out no one can make another, think, feel or believe anything.

That has never been my point to you to “make” me believe anything I asked that you answer my questions as I answer yours, that we conduct a discussion, an exchange of ideas etc and do so with respect free from name calling and emotions.


You know this is the case as I have said it over and over on several boards. I believe you have a great deal to share as we all do and to share means to exchange.

Lets start a new as friends and share.

 

[Throg]

This tells us nothing about how order arrived in the Universe ... unless of course order has always been. And if that's the case, it still doesn't explain why there is any order at all?

It wasn't supposed to. It was supposed to answer the question you actually asked me not one you made up subsequently.

 

[Throg]

could you please find how much federal money goes to public schools and compare it to military spending? I know it is a silly comparison, but I want you to get a sense of perspective...

I thought your post was eminently sensible up until the very last expression of desire. Iacchus' idealist philosophy precludes the possibility of a sense of perspective. You can dream the impossible dream of course but remember it's just a beautiful dream.

 

[KelvinG]

Was it a deliberate attempt to be stupid or to induce anger when you asked it of him?

I do not see Pahansiri's question as either of the options you listed, but rather a legitimate attempt to get you to examine the types of questions you ask and the types of answers you give. If you see it as more, perhaps you should look to yourself.

You must remember, Iacchus is here to liberate the minds of us close minded skeptics. He believes he is getting us to open up our thought process and see things from another perspective.

Meanwhile, his mind is incredibly closed. Why do you think he won't answer the question about whether it's possible or not that his God doesn't exist? It's because he refuses to consider alternatives to his dogma. Yet, us close minded skeptics are the evil ones.

I can tell you right now, that from reading this thread, the skeptics are way more open minded than Iacchus is. He wants to cloud the dialogue with mean nothing philo-babble that has no basis in logic or reality outside of his own warped mind.

He's one of these new age believers who wants everyone to explore alternatives, open their perspectives, embrace new ideas. Everyone except him, that is.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes, I realize I may have jumped the tracks a bit, but I was just cutting to the chase.

Sorry, I don't follow you.

in order to understand anything, we have to ask what order is and, how it came about.

Why? I ask again, what does altruism have to do with order?

I don't see how it's possible that order can have a beginning

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. I refer you to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (with which I'm sure you're familiar, even if we have been avoiding it so far). Its logical implication is that at the beginning of the universe, entropy was extremely low, and ever since then it has been increasing. It's a logical, inescapable conclusion unless you deny all the evidence that the so-called "Big Bang" occurred.

Well, how could it "elvove" (into a survival trait), if it was merely following the pre-existing order of things? Does the design on the carpet "elvolve" when you roll the carpet out? No, not at all. And, although it may "appear" that way, it merely unfolds according to a predefined pattern.

Those social species whose members helped each other had a survival advantage and left more offspring than those social species whose members did not. That is all. It's got nothing to do with order, predestination or carpets.

 

[Iacchus]

You know this is the case as I have said it over and over on several boards. I believe you have a great deal to share as we all do and to share means to exchange.

Do you mean a "meaningful" exchange? How is that possible in a Universe that was not founded upon any such thing? ... at least according to many who subscribe to this forum. Do you know what I think? I think a majority of people take themselves way too seriously, almost as if their version of reality were absolute (hmm ...), to base it upon the lack of anything "meaningful." What a joke! So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't treat it in any way other than this.

 

[Throg]

Do you mean a "meaningful" exchange? How is that possible in a Universe that was not founded upon any such thing? ... at least according to many who subscribe to this forum.

That the Universe was not founded on meaningful exchange in no way implies that meaningful exchange. Similarly if it were the case that the Universe had been founded on meaningful exchange (and I have no conception of what that is actually supposed to mean) that would imply neither the impossibility of meaningless exchange or no meaningful exchange.

Do you know what I think? I think a majority of people take themselves way too seriously, almost as if their version of reality were absolute (hmm ...), to base it upon the lack of anything "meaningful." What a joke! So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't treat it in any way other than this.

That you think differently from "a majority of people" in no way excuses you considering them a joke. I certainly do not have to excuse you for treating them as if their beliefs are a joke.

 

[Pahansiri]

Do you mean a "meaningful" exchange? How is that possible in a Universe that was not founded upon any such thing? ... at least according to many who subscribe to this forum. Do you know what I think? I think a majority of people take themselves way too seriously, almost as if their version of reality were absolute (hmm ...), to base it upon the lack of anything "meaningful." What a joke! So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't treat it in any way other than this.

Do you mean a "meaningful" exchange?

Why yes I am sure you know that is what I mean. A meaningful respectful exchange of ideas, thoughts and beliefs.

How is that possible in a Universe that was not founded upon any such thing?

“Universe founded”??

Anyway what has such to do with a meaningful exchange between 2 people?

.. at least according to many who subscribe to this forum.

What does what some people have to do with me, or you or your actions? This is illogical.


Are you saying that because someone believes it is not possible to have "meaningful" exchange that you who do believe you can have a "meaningful" exchange no longer can? Are you telling me that the belief of another is controlling you?

Or because one person does does/thinks one thing you also have to even if you think it is wrong?

May I ask if you walk by a store and 5 people break in and are stealing things that you will do so even though you believe it is wrong? Will you tell the judge “ They were doing it and I think it is wrong, But they were doing it so I had too”??

With all due respect this seems like yet another reason not to respond in a meaningful way and just another shifting of the burden.

Do you know what I think?

Hard to fully say as you preach but will not exchange ideas so it is hard to know the full extent of what you believe.

I think a majority of people take themselves way too seriously,

1- What is the % you base this on to say a “majority”
2- I believe many do and a clear sign is when they refuse to have a meaningful conversation/exchange of beliefs and ides free from any emotions/ emotional attachment to a fixed belief or position. Such other signs seen are name calling etc and anger at being questioned.

almost as if their version of reality were absolute (hmm ...),

I believe many do and a clear sign is when they refuse to have a meaningful conversation/exchange of beliefs and ides free from any emotions/ emotional attachment to a fixed belief or position. Such other signs seen are name calling etc and anger at being questioned.

to base it upon the lack of anything "meaningful." What a joke!

Sorry you feel that way.

So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't treat it in any way other than this.

Your actions are yours. May I suggest then to ease your suffering being that you do not wish to have discussions that you do not frequent discussion forums.

Be well.

 

[Iacchus]

Why yes I am sure you know that is what I mean. A meaningful respectful exchange of ideas, thoughts and beliefs.

“Universe founded”??

Anyway what has such to do with a meaningful exchange between 2 people?

What does what some people have to do with me, or you or your actions? This is illogical.

Are you saying that because someone believes it is not possible to have "meaningful" exchange that you who do believe you can have a "meaningful" exchange no longer can? Are you telling me that the belief of another is controlling you?

Or because one person does does/thinks one thing you also have to even if you think it is wrong?

May I ask if you walk by a store and 5 people break in and are stealing things that you will do so even though you believe it is wrong? Will you tell the judge “ They were doing it and I think it is wrong, But they were doing it so I had too”??

With all due respect this seems like yet another reason not to respond in a meaningful way and just another shifting of the burden.

Hard to fully say as you preach but will not exchange ideas so it is hard to know the full extent of what you believe.

1- What is the % you base this on to say a “majority”
2- I believe many do and a clear sign is when they refuse to have a meaningful conversation/exchange of beliefs and ides free from any emotions/ emotional attachment to a fixed belief or position. Such other signs seen are name calling etc and anger at being questioned.

I believe many do and a clear sign is when they refuse to have a meaningful conversation/exchange of beliefs and ides free from any emotions/ emotional attachment to a fixed belief or position. Such other signs seen are name calling etc and anger at being questioned.

Sorry you feel that way.

Your actions are yours. May I suggest then to ease your suffering being that you do not wish to have discussions that you do not frequent discussion forums.

Be well.

Just so we can cut "crap" for a moment or two. My I ask what you base your beliefs on? Because I don't believe in an arbitrary Universe and I don't believe we're here by chance. Do you? So if you're going to continue to preach to me as if there were no two buts about it, simply because that's how the "karma" of the Universe works, you have no grounds for holding a discussion. What is this karma nonsense and how does it work? Where does it come from? Why should I be nice to you just because you're nice to me? If there is no afterlife then obviously there are no long-lasting repercussions, so why should I give a crap?

We're just speaking of a temporary fix to a life which is just an illusion anyway ... which, slaps us in the face (our butts? ) on our way out as if we were never here. If this is all there is to life which, rises from insignificance, and passes to insignificance, what's the point in discussing that which is wholly insignificant in between? Of course if any of this were true, then you and your Atheist buddies are right. But, don't expect me to hold a serious conversation with you, Okay?

By the way, I do believe in karma. However, I believe it is an eternal quality which was spawned by an Eternal Creator who, created the Universe which, may or may not be eternal ... albeit it's clearly a subset of that which is.

 

[Pahansiri]

Just so we can cut "crap" for a moment or two. My I ask what you base your beliefs on? Because I don't believe in an arbitrary Universe and I don't believe we're here by chance. Do you? So if you're going to continue to preach to me as if there were no two buts about it, simply because that's how the "karma" of the Universe works, you have no grounds for holding a discussion. What is this karma nonsense and how does it work? Where does it come from? Why should I be nice to you just because you're nice to me? If there is no afterlife then obviously there are no long-lasting repercussions, so why should I give a crap?

We're just speaking of a temporary fix to a life which is just an illusion anyway ... which, slaps us in the face (our butts? ) on our way out as if we were never here. If this is all there is to life which, rises from insignificance, and passes to insignificance, what's the point in discussing that which is wholly insignificant in between? Of course if any of this were true, then you and your Atheist buddies are right. But, don't expect me to hold a serious conversation with you, Okay?

By the way, I do believe in karma. However, I believe it is an eternal quality which was spawned by an Eternal Creator who, created the Universe which, may or may not be eternal ... albeit it's clearly a subset of that which is.

Just so we can cut "crap" for a moment or two.

That would be up to you I have no power over your actions. I can only simply keep doing what I do that being logical, respectful conversation and seeking it from others.

My I ask what you base your beliefs on?

Of course, and I will actually answer.

Because I don't believe in an arbitrary Universe and I don't believe we're here by chance.

I respect that and hope that we can start to discuss this belief.

Do you?

You must define what you mean by “ are we hare by chance”. If you mean did a god decide he wanted to create beings, then no it does not seem logical to me as I see no evidence but if any arises and proves there is a god or god then I shall change my mind.

So if you're going to continue to preach to me as if there were no two buts about it,

My friend you are kidding no one by saying I preach to anyone, you are angry that I said you preach. To preach is to just wish to talk, tell people what to believe then refuse to debate what you have said and demand is truth.

I do no such thing, I say what is what I believe, offer logical conclusion and facts as best as I can, if it is something that is purely belief at this point I say that too.

simply because that's how the "karma" of the Universe works, you have no grounds for holding a discussion.

This is confusing what you are saying? Are you saying I demanded a truth as to how the Universe works? Then please post my words. I have said that I believe karma/cause and effect is a “law” every action has a reaction. While I believe this effects rebirths that is clearly has I have said my believe.. I demand nothing.

What is this karma nonsense and how does it work?

1- I find it strange you say Karma is nonsense yet latter say

And by the way, I do believe in karma.

2- Buddhism defines karma as actions/cause and effect.

Where does it come from?

Where do the laws of physics “come from”? Why must everything come from somewhere, but then you believe a God did not just come from somewhere and can just be. Why not can what is known just always be. We know that energy and matter are not created nor destroyed, what we may believe is there is a God.. It is an unknown.

Please tell me why you believe something that is known, i.e. life, the universe can not just always be but you do believe a god ( a unknown) can just always be?

Why should I be nice to you just because you're nice to me?

I have no control over your actions nor do I wish any. Do as you wish your being unkind to me has no effect on me. It seems to bother you as is clear from your anger.

My being nice to others comes with no cost I seek nothing in return.

But as I have said I have answered all your questions, you almost none of mine and mostly you only return personal attacks and name calling.

If there is no afterlife then obviously there are no long-lasting repercussions, so why should I give a crap?

1- I am Buddhist, remember I believe there is no death only death of a body and I am not my body.
2- So you are rude and unkind because even though you believe in an after life and long-lasting repercussions others don’t so because they may be mean you have to also because they are doing it? Even thought you believe it is wrong? This is fully illogical.

We're just speaking of a temporary fix to a life which is just an illusion anyway ...

In reality yes illusion but this has nothing to do with the physical reality we face here and the effects of kindness and unkindness.

But may I say if after my death there is nothing as to a materialistic atheist belief that is fine with me because it will be fact, truth and I fear nothing. I will still be kind to everyone having loving kindness, respect and compassion for all. As I said my kindness comes with no conditions.

If this is all there is to life which, rises from insignificance, and passes to insignificance, what's the point in discussing that which is wholly insignificant in between?

You would have to ask someone who believes what you just said, I am not him.

But may I say if after my death there is nothing as to a materialistic atheist belief that is fine with me because it will be fact, truth and I fear nothing. I will still be kind to everyone having loving kindness, respect and compassion for all. As I said my kindness comes with no conditions.

Of course if this were true, then you and your Atheist buddies are right. But, don't expect me to hold a serious conversation with you, Okay?

I don’t expect anything. Please tell me, why you only wish to preach and talk then to people who believe as you do. Why fear debate concerning your beliefs? Is your faith in them that weak?

Please trust me if you can show me you are right I will believe you.

And by the way, I do believe in karma. However, I believe it is an eternal quality which was spawned by an Eternal Creator who, created the Universe which, may or may not be eternal ... albeit it is a subset of that which is.

I as I have said over and over in countless post, respect you believe that.

 

[Pahansiri]

Of course if any of this were true, then you and your Atheist buddies are right. But, don't expect me to hold a serious conversation with you, Okay?

Then why come to this site?

 

[Iacchus]

Then why come to this site?

Do you believe in truth?

 

[Pahansiri]

Do you believe in truth?

Again my friend you do not answer one single question and only ask me one.

Do I believe in truth, yes always no matter what it is proven to be. I have no emotional needs for anything to be, what is, is.

I believe many things in many differing ways.

There are things I am fully convinced are the truth after looking as fully as to all available evidence. But if new more profound evidence arises and seems logical to disprove what I had first believed I would abandon it.

There are things I believe may well be the truth after looking as fully as to all available evidence. But if new more profound evidence arises and seems logical to disprove what I had first believed I would abandon it.


There are things I have a “faith” in as in things in my believe/Buddhism I do not fully understand and can not yet say I fully believe. I look at the whole of my belief all things I fully believe are true and will have a faith these other things may well be true but keep an open logical mind.

There are things I know for sure such as what I just ate for lunch.

So, come on answer some questions, it is fun..

 

[Iacchus]

That would be up to you I have no power over your actions. I can only simply keep doing what I do that being logical, respectful conversation and seeking it from others.

Yes, but is everything you say more than just a mantra? ... which, doesn't mean anything really.

You must define what you mean by “ are we hare by chance”. If you mean did a god decide he wanted to create beings, then no it does not seem logical to me as I see no evidence but if any arises and proves there is a god or god then I shall change my mind.

What other alternative do you have though, besides that which is wholly arbitrary?

My friend you are kidding no one by saying I preach to anyone, you are angry that I said you preach. To preach is to just wish to talk, tell people what to believe then refuse to debate what you have said and demand is truth.

And where I come from, when someone starts a conversation with "my friend," without any consideration for who they were talking to, we would ask that they drop the "pretense."

I do no such thing, I say what is what I believe, offer logical conclusion and facts as best as I can, if it is something that is purely belief at this point I say that too.

And is there anything about the human mind which does not entail belief? As you have reminded me several times already, life is just an illusion.

This is confusing what you are saying? Are you saying I demanded a truth as to how the Universe works? Then please post my words. I have said that I believe karma/cause and effect is a “law” every action has a reaction.

A law? Upon whose authority?

While I believe this effects rebirths that is clearly has I have said my believe.. I demand nothing.

Rebith? What do you mean? Reincarnation? Are you saying reincarnation does not ultimately entail an afterlife?

1- I find it strange you say Karma is nonsense yet latter say
2- Buddhism defines karma as actions/cause and effect.

Yet if karma is responsible for everything as you say, it is also responsible for nonsense.

Where do the laws of physics “come from”? Why must everything come from somewhere, but then you believe a God did not just come from somewhere and can just be. Why not can what is known just always be. We know that energy and matter are not created nor destroyed, what we may believe is there is a God.. It is an unknown.

Everything which exists, must somehow "register" with everything else that exists. So, to suggest something is unknown and will remain uknown is simply not so. There are always ways to detect it.

Please tell me why you believe something that is known, i.e. life, the universe can not just always be but you do believe a god ( a unknown) can just always be?

Because unlike the salmon which swims upstream, we would have no point of origin.

I have no control over your actions nor do I wish any. Do as you wish your being unkind to me has no effect on me. It seems to bother you as is clear from your anger.

And you might want to consider how much of this is your own projection ...

My being nice to others comes with no cost I seek nothing in return.

But apparently you must believe in some greater good in the Universe. How so? To simply pass it off as "karma" explains nothing.

But as I have said I have answered all your questions, you almost none of mine and mostly you only return personal attacks and name calling.

Except that I am not it. I am not the answer. And I do need my personal space.

1- I am Buddhist, remember I believe there is no death only death of a body and I am not my body.

That doesn't make any sense in the least, unless of course you believe in an afterlife.

2- So you are rude and unkind because even though you believe in an after life and long-lasting repercussions others don’t so because they may be mean you have to also because they are doing it? Even thought you believe it is wrong? This is fully illogical.

No, I just don't take them seriously, because we have no grounds for holding a conversation. They won't take me seriously you see, because they insist that there are no grounds to take things seriously. And yet they are very serious about it (as if I were the one who was under a delusion) when they do. Now isn't that weird?

In reality yes illusion but this has nothing to do with the physical reality we face here and the effects of kindness and unkindness.

This is meaningless.

But may I say if after my death there is nothing as to a materialistic atheist belief that is fine with me because it will be fact, truth and I fear nothing. I will still be kind to everyone having loving kindness, respect and compassion for all. As I said my kindness comes with no conditions.

What is kindness, if it's nothing more than a reaction to environmental stimulus? Nothing, really. Just something to be "explained" away, like everything else.

But may I say if after my death there is nothing as to a materialistic atheist belief that is fine with me because it will be fact, truth and I fear nothing. I will still be kind to everyone having loving kindness, respect and compassion for all. As I said my kindness comes with no conditions.

Well, there are those folks who need a reason for what they do.

I don’t expect anything. Please tell me, why you only wish to preach and talk then to people who believe as you do. Why fear debate concerning your beliefs? Is your faith in them that weak?

Please trust me if you can show me you are right I will believe you.

I have something to say which, for the most part goes unacknowledged. And no, it has little to do with "believing" me.

I as I have said over and over in countless post, respect you believe that.

And have you heard of the expression, "quality versus quantity?" Which of course has no significance in a world devoid of meaning.

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, but is everything you say more than just a mantra? ... which, doesn't mean anything really.

This, from the man who has scores of posts explaining "the moment"?

LOL It is really very amusing to watch you try to logically address somebody's arguments, Iacchus. It makes me understand why you so seldom do that, and prefer to ask silly questions instead.

[snip]

I have something to say which, for the most part goes unacknowledged. And no, it has little to do with "believing" me.

You have been asked, over and over again, to explain some of the things you say. What sort of acknowledgement are you looking for?