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Detecting intelligence via algorithm

The specific thing that was designed in the article was the book which was analyzed. Is this being disputed?

It sounds like some are getting hopelessly stuck on the word "design". I suggest they look up some synonyms. It is like they're saying that languages like C+ weren't designed or something.
 
I'm getting a Bible Code deja vu here.

I'm glad it reminds you of it, because even critics of the Bible Code recognized there was something there that they were open-minded enough to explore.

And hopefully, like the Bible Code debate, it will get rigorously analyzed and the debate recorded in journals, like the Bible Code debate was (in Statistical Science).
 
Yes, structure of the English language.
Have you read the Nature news feature that the article is referring to? It's about DNA. The stuff about Emma is merely introductory material. The algorithm is designed to find structure in strings of characters of any kind.
No one is saying it "must". What one is saying is that it is an interesting area of study.
I agree that it's interesting. But I don't understand how it can have relevance to intelligence or design in the sense that IDers mean those terms.
 
So let me get this straight.

This code was able to figure out where to put the spaces in text, but it would mess up every one in five times?

Thiscode was able to figure out wh ere to put the spaces in t hetext bu tit would mess u pe very one in five times
 
I'm not about to summarize a lot of journal articles for you.

I gave the reference, and you can read up on it if you'd care to.
 
"Despite having no knowledge of the English vocabulary or syntax, the programme managed to identify 80 per cent of the words and separate them back into sentences."

That is, it was able to detect design.

No.

The correct conclusion is, "That is, it was able to detect structure." The presence of structure does not imply design.

Cheers,
Ben
 
I'm glad it reminds you of it, because even critics of the Bible Code recognized there was something there that they were open-minded enough to explore.

I'm fairly familiar with the Bible Code and the criticisms of it. I have not heard any serious argument that there was "something there", other than datamining.

Barry Simon's web site has a list of some fifty mathematicians who have each personally examined the Bible code and found it totally unconvincing. Certainly, some scientists have been convinced by the evidence, but the majority have not.
Book Review: Michael Drosnin, The Bible Code

A Review of: Cracking the Bible Code, by Jeffrey Satinover, M.D.

The Case Against the Codes

And hopefully, like the Bible Code debate, it will get rigorously analyzed and the debate recorded in journals, like the Bible Code debate was (in Statistical Science).

On the Refereeing in Statistical Science

You are simply using the old Woo scheme that proponents of homeopathy (Benveniste's article in Nature) also use: Point to the publication, but conveniently leave out the pertinent parts.

It is fraud, T'ai Chi. Pure and simple.

I'm not about to summarize a lot of journal articles for you.

I gave the reference, and you can read up on it if you'd care to.

And I gave more references, and people can read up on it if they care to see how you manipulate, distort and lie about facts.
 
The really funny thing about the comments on that blog is that the posters honestly believe that real scientists give a flying **** about ID.
 
No.

The correct conclusion is, "That is, it was able to detect structure." The presence of structure does not imply design.

Cheers,
Ben

Just a query: But how did it know STRUCTURE of the English language, to be able to form form sentences (80% of the time...seemingly above the percentage of chance), if it didn't know the English language to beGIN with?
 
Just a query: But how did it know STRUCTURE of the English language, to be able to form form sentences (80% of the time...seemingly above the percentage of chance), if it didn't know the English language to beGIN with?

The same way we learn. It'll look for patterns, 'guess' what they are, and seek confirmation in additional data.
In the case of this algorithm (which I know nothing about, I haven't read the article) it's probably looking for junctions in the text, places where a stream of letters suddenly has multiple options about which letter could come next and breaking the text into component words at these points.

I'd imagine it has trouble with verbs ending in -ing and -ed and wants to separate these into multiple words and words that always occur together in the same order it will want to join together "ohmrdarcy"*.


*I know, wrong Austin.
 
Just a query: But how did it know STRUCTURE of the English language, to be able to form form sentences (80% of the time...seemingly above the percentage of chance), if it didn't know the English language to beGIN with?

I don't know how to program was written, so I can only guess based on how I'd try to do something like this.

First we must be precise about what it did. The program, without any specific understanding of English vocabulary or syntax, was fed the text of Emma (minus spaces and punctuation) by Jane Austin. It was then able to identify 80% of the word breaks and sentence breaks. Presumably it would have been able to accomplish a similar feat on, say, a German novel if that had been handed to it.

How might it work?

Well if I was writing something like this, I'd start by looking for short strings that get repeated a lot. Those are probably words. There is a lot of research into how to recognize that kind of pattern. It is very important for, say, compression algorithms. After the program has a list of things that it thinks are words, it would then look for patterns in the lists of words that are recognizably sentences. It isn't obvious how to do this, and in fact doing this non-obvious part is part of why this was research.

So after a couple of passes through the text, the program has "learned" enough English to be able to identify likely word and sentence breaks. With, apparently, about 80% accuracy. Its performance has to do with the fact that there is a structure to English. It has nothing to do with why that structure is there or what it represents. After processing the book, the program likely has figured out that "word" is a word. But the program has no idea what a "word" is. It just knows that that is a string that appears a lot, and should probably be marked with spaces.

Now the authors apparently want to try analyzing the human genome and seeing whether they find useful boundaries. Not being a biologist, I can think of a couple of reasons why they might find useful boundaries. First of all there are natural boundaries in DNA that somehow cause only certain stretches to get copied to RNA and eventually into creating proteins. Also something like 45% of the human genome is made up of transposons and their remnants, so there are a lot of repeated patterns to find. (Transposons, also known as jumping genes, are sections of DNA that can copy themselves to other parts of your DNA. Yes, genetics really is more complex than Mendel would have you believe...)

Will they get anywhere with this type of approach? Will the results be useful for biologists? I don't know and nor do they. That is why what they are doing is called research.

Cheers,
Ben
 
The same way we learn. It'll look for patterns, 'guess' what they are, and seek confirmation in additional data.
In the case of this algorithm (which I know nothing about, I haven't read the article) it's probably looking for junctions in the text, places where a stream of letters suddenly has multiple options about which letter could come next and breaking the text into component words at these points.

I'd imagine it has trouble with verbs ending in -ing and -ed and wants to separate these into multiple words and words that always occur together in the same order it will want to join together "ohmrdarcy"*.


*I know, wrong Austin.

Well...we know that hieroglyphics were also structured and that took scientists years to unravel and...didn't that take the Rosetta Stone to do it? Modern computers are now our Rosetta Stone...as was the case with The Bible Code.
 
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The correct conclusion is, "That is, it was able to detect structure." The presence of structure does not imply design.

I disagree.

You seem to be hung up on the implications of the word 'design' in a major way. The correct way to state it is that structure does not necessarily imply design. In this case however, we already know for an absolute fact that the book which was written that was analzed was indeed designed.

If the algorithm works well on things that are known to be designed, then if it operates on object X and performs similarly it can hint that design is present.
 
I disagree.

You seem to be hung up on the implications of the word 'design' in a major way. The correct way to state it is that structure does not necessarily imply design. In this case however, we already know for an absolute fact that the book which was written that was analzed was indeed designed.

If the algorithm works well on things that are known to be designed, then if it operates on object X and performs similarly it can hint that design is present.

You are the one being hung up on the implications of the word "design". Or, rather, you want to ignore the implications of the word "design".

You want to take the approach of "God Did It", and totally ignore scientific explanations.

Your explanation is "God Did It". Sorry, but that doesn't cut it here. Go to religious fanatics' boards, if you want to argue that.
 
...then if it operates on object X and performs similarly it can hint that design is present.

Well, there are some things that appear to be one thing or cause, but are in fact something else. But!... if you string together enough components that seem to defy odds, then one just might be onto something when making their point.

The classic quip that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...meaning it surely must be a duck is true...I can carry this out with the religious argument where Evolutionists do not obviously believe in such rules because they refuse to acknowledge intelligent design even though ALL the signs point to it, from the standpoint nothing is as complex in the universe as the human brain (yet lesser things all have to be created), and that everything in the world works in uniformity, which, on any other scale of measuremnt, people would all agree to say that it just could not happen...that it has to be as duck, if you will (intelligent design)...yet Evolutionists disagree that it has to be a duck, if you will. I could go on talking about the brain, the fruit ripening and changing color, of those creatures of the world who spare eating another creature that it very well could eat because each of the two creatures relies on the other for survival (I watch shows about these amzing pairings on the Animal Planet network).
 
If the algorithm works well on things that are known to be designed, then if it operates on object X and performs similarly it can hint that design is present.
It doesn't rule out design. But a hint for the presence of design that also simultaneously hints equally strongly at the presence of non-design is not a very useful hint.
 
If the algorithm works well on things that are known to be designed, then if it operates on object X and performs similarly it can hint that design is present.
Out of curiosity, has anyone tried the algorithm on stuff that is not designed, say random gibberish?

I am willing to bet a small amount of money that the algorithm will "work" just as well at finding patterns in random gibberish as it would anything else.
 
Has Shepherd actually published the algorithm he used? I can't find anything on either Web of Science or his homepage about it. The Nature news feature doesn't give any citations, either.

Wowbagger, what is the basis for you thinking that it would work on a random string of characters as well as Emma? If the algorithm is compression-based, I would be very surprised if it worked as well on, for example, the characters of Emma randomly permuted.
 

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