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Define "Free Will"

Lord Emsworth

Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves
Joined
Apr 22, 2003
Messages
3,181
The term "Free Will" is often used. Quite often over the last few days on these boards. But what exactly is it? Got a definition?

And more importantly, how is free will an out fo the "Problem of Evil"?? Or, in other words how does free will shift the resposibility from God to humans?

 
Are we trying to define libertarian free will or merely compatibilist free will? Is it formal or informal free will?

~~ Paul
 
Well, we certainly don't live in the past which, was nothing but the present at that time, neither do we live in the future which, is merely the present as it continues to unfold. So, in effect all we really have is the present which, involves nothing but free choice.
 
But if our choices are not dependent in any way on the past, then they are not free choices, but arbitrary choices. Free will is supposed to include some sort of desire or want, which necessarily must evolve over time.

~~ Paul
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Are we trying to define libertarian free will or merely compatibilist free will? Is it formal or informal free will?

~~ Paul


Yeah, for example. All of those.

 
Iacchus said:
Well, we certainly don't live in the past which, was nothing but the present at that time, neither do we live in the future which, is merely the present as it continues to unfold. So, in effect all we really have is the present which, involves nothing but free choice.


Great. Free choice, but free from what?

 
Iacchus said:
[meaningless chatter deleted]
So, in effect all we really have is the present which, involves nothing but free choice.
So you assert.

Why, though? Just because it is neither past nor future, why do you figure it is free choice?
 
Get to the biological roots of decision making:

- Nerves fire, or they don't, and that determines your actions and feelings.
- Nerves are influenced by all kinds of stimuli, mostly other nerves (presumably under your control, but often not, as influnced by.... other nerves, chemical signals, external environment)

That's really all I can think of.

The best picture I can paint for free will is that it takes a long time before you are absolved of responsibility for any single "what if" in your life. In other words, long-term actions are an evolution of many short-term, and short-term day-to-day choices are supposedly your own responsibility, in an abstract "court of law". (People use that as an excuse to make bad decisions all the time, naively or apathetically taking advantage how short-term behavior evolves into the long term. -- Therein lies a logical flaw, since one can't control one's apathy anymore than the other decisions we are discussing.)

So the real issue is: do I have any choice over my own thoughts and feelings? (Immediate? Long-term?) How can I, when those thoughts and feelings are most influenced by those same thoughts and feelings, which were formed by the 2 points I outlined above.

So the kicker is that you are held accountable for single actions (like a crime), despite that such an action is beyond your control. But don't complain. Neither do policemen have a choice when they decide to crack your skull for being a punk.

The antidote is to "magically" fall into a pattern of behavior that is both pleasurable and acceptable. If your THINKING PATTERN or your LOGICAL STYLE is good, then you will be OK. These are deeply personal matters, which is why thinkers tend to have personality conflicts. It's also why we give a free-pass to those we admire when they deviate and do something bad, like cheat, steal, or lie. (ie- We either love or hate the sinner, and ignore the sin.)

(One finer point- I've noticed that I can't make any decision for as long as I'm thinking about it. Thinking = paralysis.)


If you really want to gain some perspective-- study recursive programming. If I say, "Read this sentence, repeat until condition X" (and also pass whatever parameters you like... none if you wish), then you may be stuck reading that sentence forever, and away goes your free will! Most importantly-- who is responsible for (who has "free will" over) condition X? Maybe you're responsible for obeying my command to start reading. Maybe you choose to start reading on your own. Maybe you should "choose" to stop (recall the logical flaw of this...). Maybe X is bullcrap, or maybe it's a Commandment from God.

The task, it seems, is to sort out the origins of original thoughts, conditions, and behavior. That's the realm of academia, including history, and all the sciences, etc. Problem is that universities have been perverted by selfish interests that conflict with my own chosen (or not) view of the world.


Oh-- and fractal patterns. Study how fractals manifest and seem to paradoxically both define and refute chaos theory.... In fact, I recommend everyone download a fractal screen-saver right now, get drunk, and stare at it all night. EVERYTHING will be clear to you then.
 
Mercutio said:

So you assert.

Why, though? Just because it is neither past nor future, why do you figure it is free choice?
Because I wouldn't be awake and aware of what I was doing otherwise.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
But if our choices are not dependent in any way on the past, then they are not free choices, but arbitrary choices. Free will is supposed to include some sort of desire or want, which necessarily must evolve over time.

~~ Paul
And yet the past never existed, outside of the present that is. Even the Big Bang was born of the present which, is of the Eternal Moment.


Lord Emsworth said:
Great. Free choice, but free from what?
Freedom from being held unaccountable perhaps? ;) Yes, that would almost seem to facilitate the need for evil too -- which, has a bearing on our choices -- now wouldn't it?
 
Originally posted by Iacchus
Freedom from being held unaccountable perhaps? ;)


Yes, that this is supposedly so is clear. But how?


Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, that would almost seem to facilitate the need for evil too -- which, has a bearing on our choices -- now wouldn't it?


And where would this evil come from? And if it has a bearing on our choices can these choices be said to be free will choices?

 
Lord Emsworth said:

Yes, that this is supposedly so is clear. But how?

And where would this evil come from? And if it has a bearing on our choices can these choices be said to be free will choices?
Well, if we were enlightened beings which, first and foremost is contingent upon us being alive and aware, we would understand that there's a choice between doing that which is constructive, versus that which destructive.
 
Originally posted by Iacchus
Well, if we were enlightened beings which, first and foremost is contingent upon us being alive and aware, we would understand that there's a choice between doing that which is constructive, versus that which destructive.


Yes? :con2:

 
The freedom to start yet another thread on free will thread in the Religion and Philosophy forum?

From the search page.

17 treads and 5127 posts with the word free will in them all in the Religion and Philosophy forum.
 
Yes, but did he actually have a choice, or does matter obey TLOP, and you are made of matter, so you obey TLOP?
;)

Oh I forgot: 'Do you drive the car, or does the car drive you?'
 
Iacchus said:
Because I wouldn't be awake and aware of what I was doing otherwise.
How do you figure? Wouldn't an omnipotent god be able to fool you into thinking exactly this? And you, completely controlled, would have no option but to feel free.
 
Free will is completely incompatable with the concept of god to my way of thinking. If a being is omnipotent and omniscient, as god is said to be, free will couldn't exist. If god is omniscient, he knows everything that ever has or ever will happen with absolute certainty, free will is impossible. If an omniscient being knows the future with absolute certainty, he would be unable to change it. If he is able to change it, couldn't possibly be omniscient.
 
I think Dubya gave an excellent definition for soverignty, so maybe we'll use it for 'free will'.

"Free will means just that; it's free...will. You're a -- you've been given free will, and you're viewed as a free-will entity."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/186171_bushtribes13.html


All those who don't have free will, send me a check of at least $1,000.00 because... you don't have a choice.
 
Ok I’ll have a go,

Free will - the apparent ability to make a decision, based on careful analyses of known stimuli and personal knowledge (caveat – you are almost certainly not aware of all the stimuli).
 
Lord Emsworth said:
The term "Free Will" is often used. Quite often over the last few days on these boards. But what exactly is it? Got a definition?

And more importantly, how is free will an out fo the "Problem of Evil"?? Or, in other words how does free will shift the resposibility from God to humans?


The ability to make choices free from external control (as distinct from influence).

I don't believe in God so the second part is irrelevant. We are responsible for our own actions.
 

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