Define Consiousness

[hammegk]

Wooops. I thought that looked funny....

How about "algorithmic"?


And no, I don't think materialists have -- or will ever have -- "full explanations for process" if that process leads to "life"; forget about "the states which give anything meaning".

 

[JAK]

I will argue that it doesn't exist. It is a rubric under which many other things are attributed.

Forgive me, I have read many entries, but not all. (And, being a newbie, I haven't figured out how to do a search on a single thread. Any help would be appreciated.)

"Existence" of anything typically results in "a name for it" - even if we are mistaken about what "it" is (as Dancing David postulates). From what I have read so far, much of the discussion involves what consciousness includes.

Has there been any discussion clarifying what consciousness "is not?" In other words, is there "consciousness" during a comatose state? Is there consciousness during deep sleep (delta and theta waves - not REM sleep)? If consciousness does not include coma or deep sleep, does consciousness spring forth immediately upon the end of sleep or coma? In other words, can consciousness be separated from our "waking state"?

 

[hammegk]

Re: Re: Define Consiousness

Has there been any discussion clarifying what consciousness "is not?" In other words, is there "consciousness" during a comatose state? Is there consciousness during deep sleep (delta and theta waves - not REM sleep)? If consciousness does not include coma or deep sleep, does consciousness spring forth immediately upon the end of sleep or coma? In other words, can consciousness be separated from our "waking state"?

At this point you have as an Axiom "human consciousness exists" and are asking what is "human consciousness". Nothing wrong with that, but imnsho, it has zilch to do with the Question "What is consciousness?'.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: Define Consiousness

Has there been any discussion clarifying what consciousness "is not?" In other words, is there "consciousness" during a comatose state? Is there consciousness during deep sleep (delta and theta waves - not REM sleep)? If consciousness does not include coma or deep sleep, does consciousness spring forth immediately upon the end of sleep or coma? In other words, can consciousness be separated from our "waking state"?

This discussion has probably touched on that JAK. My thumbnail sketch would likely not be the next man's. But, at the risk of opening up this can of worms anew, I would say that there exists a seamless integration of Awareness (via sensation), processing and feedback (memory recall and storage), and will (conscious force moving the body to act.)

Where this integration is not apparent, neither is the estimation of consciousness.

My friend, the cryptic Hammegk, has a concept that seems quite near but continues to escape me. I believe for him existence and consciousness are bound. His take on the coma victim might be illustrative. Care to set me straight once more Hamme?

 

[JAK]

Re: Re: Re: Define Consiousness

At this point you have as an Axiom "human consciousness exists" and are asking what is "human consciousness". Nothing wrong with that, but imnsho, it has zilch to do with the Question "What is consciousness?'.

If I understand correctly, there is a superset of all things with "consciousness. " Within that, there is a subset of "human consciousness." The latter is the point of discussion and what is being defined, right?

Regarding "human consciousness," there are a couple of quick psychological "parlor tricks" showing that vision is a digital construction in the mind. Would that be of some use to the discussion?

Next, if "human consciousness" can be shown to be tied to an external control system (sympathetic nervous system) of the human organism, and if "sleep/coma" can be shown to be tied to an internal control system (parasympathetic nervous system), would that benefit the discussion?

 

[hammegk]

The OP:

Define Consiousness

I will argue that it doesn't exist. It is a rubric under which many other things are attributed.

Does not say anything in particular about human consciousness.


Indeed, I contend that "consciousness" is awareness of the surroundings and the ability to react (and assuming free will exists, act) with regards to those surroundings.


Atlas: Is a comatose human more conscious than an animal, a plant, a bacterium, a virus, a quark? How about a human that isn't comatose?

If the only question is "can human consciousness be demonstrated without a perceived-human-body in working condition", the answer is "not to date by empirical science". Now what?

 

[Atlas]

Atlas: Is a comatose human more conscious than an animal, a plant, a bacterium, a virus, a quark? How about a human that isn't comatose?

If the only question is "can human consciousness be demonstrated without a perceived-human-body in working condition", the answer is "not to date by empirical science". Now what?

I think animals and humans have the same consciousness. Humans have more options in learning, like language and math skills and perhaps better memories.

A comatose human is without consciousness as I perceive it... a seamless intergration including volition. So even if there is some kind of awareness going on it is UN-conscious.

I think a perceived human body in working condition is required for human consciousness.

What about the relationship of cosciousness and existence?

 

[JAK]

...
What about the relationship of cosciousness and existence? [/B]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Consciousness is a subset of that which exists, but I don't think that's what you meant. Regarding coma, some who have been in a coma for years eventually return (at least in part) to consciousness. That seems, perhaps, more pertinent to your question. Yet, that would seem to lead to "sleep" - do we lose "existence" during sleep episodes? Please frame your question again. Thanks.

...
Indeed, I contend that "consciousness" is awareness of the surroundings and the ability to react (and assuming free will exists, act) with regards to those surroundings.


Atlas: Is a comatose human more conscious than an animal, a plant, a bacterium, a virus, a quark? How about a human that isn't comatose?

If the only question is "can human consciousness be demonstrated without a perceived-human-body in working condition", the answer is "not to date by empirical science". Now what?

I agree with Hammegk.

 

[Atlas]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Consciousness is a subset of that which exists, but I don't think that's what you meant. Regarding coma, some who have been in a coma for years eventually return (at least in part) to consciousness. That seems, perhaps, more pertinent to your question. Yet, that would seem to lead to "sleep" - do we lose "existence" during sleep episodes? Please frame your question again. Thanks.

I agree with Hammegk.

I agree with alot that Hamme says too. But then I find that I am often dancing on the edge of his meaning. I always wish for more from the guy, his posts are terse and cryptic to me. I think he understands a lot more about philosophy than I do but his posts often leave me wondering about double meanings.

My question about existence and consciousness is one of the troublesome areas that Hammegk has led me into. He is an Objective Idealist which I think is much saner than a Subjective Idealist. And I like the term much more than dualist, which we both think is wrongheaded. Unfortunately for me, I can't say for certain that I am not a dualist. I want to be a materialist or a physicalist but I slipup easily. I am an idealist by nature.

Anyway, a big question is whether existence became conscious or whether consciousness was first and existence sprang from it.
Kind of a chicken and egg thing.

Materialists believe (and this is my description) that matter does wonderful things on it's own. It came together and formed the stars, lighting the heavens. It then formed the planets and in another coming together, came alive. In a third great coming together it became conscious.

I think Hammegk has this another way. Consciousness is the fundamental. Matter can contain it, but matter is not necessary to it.

I don't like putting words into his mouth because I readily admit I'm not sure how it all fits into his philosophy, but that's my take.

On another point, I wondered about the comatose individual. Does existence cease without consciousness? My answer is no. I believe the universe is made of dumb matter without an underlying consciousness and consciousness is an emergent aspect of matter like solar energy, unbelievebly unexpected and very very bright. Existence was here for billions of years before consciousness and will be here for billions after consciousness subsides.

It's here I get tangled up. I take it just as axiomatically that for this consciousness, what is existence ceases to be when I cease to be. I'm thinking death here but I can expand it to coma and even nondreaming sleep.

That is, for *I* existence is what is apprehended, consumed, distributed, acted through... All that concludes in the absence of *I*, of local consciousness.

(edit: That is, I seem to have 2 definitions of existence... that which is... and that which is experienced. )

Ok, JAK... is that any better? Where do you stand?

 

[JAK]

...
Ok, JAK... is that any better? Where do you stand?

Blaise Pascal once said, "You may not believe in God, but what if you are wrong?"

There are many experiences in my life that could be explained as either spiritual or the workings of time, space, and matter. In the "spirit" of science, I doggedly and expectantly look for how time, space, and matter have done everything. Yet, in the end, I hope I'm wrong.

I do not believe in dualism for the reasons that Hammegk noted - the communication between a spirit (God, higher self, etc.) and one of us incarnate creatures requires a transmission of energy between the two. Essentially, the spirit would then have to be part of our universe and be a form of energy.

I am hoping we have more to learn about electro-magnetism and other forces of the universe. And though it is, perhaps, a "long shot," I am hoping that God (or at least an after-life) might still be there in that new knowledge.

So, I don't know if I'm an idealist in materialist clothing, or just a bit "touched."

 

[Atlas]

Blaise Pascal once said, "You may not believe in God, but what if you are wrong?"
~snip~
So, I don't know if I'm an idealist in materialist clothing, or just a bit "touched."

You'll like it around here JAK. The exchanges with other posters will solidify those notions of yourself. (I hope you don't find that you're "tetched".) And there are several posters that maintain spiritual ideals and lives. They are a minority but you've already no doubt guessed that.

I came out of Christianity myself. I wish Pascal had organized his wager around a generic god rather than the Judeo-Christian God of Hell. That was the big flaw for me from him.

After Christianity and dabblings in Buddhism I just started to ponder what I meant by God. I started to realize that the Christian God was as small-minded and petty as any of the ancient Greek, Norse or Roman gods. My God had to be bigger - bigger than big... I got to where I was telling pushy Christians, "My God CONTAINS your God."

I still love that line. (Didn't make me any friends though.)

Now I've gone in another direction. Now I'm telling folks, "God is a feeling." I've expanded that thought in several posts on various threads. I don't have much support but not many attacks either.

I love to read how these other people think about the issues I have always felt were important to figure out. Some of their ideas are brilliant and really challenging. Your own positions will shift, clarify and solidify in exchanges with them.

Welcome to the forum.

(edit: By the way - if you haven't already come across them you might enjoy reading some of the weird threads by Interesting Ian (Subjective Idealist) and Lifegazer (A kind of Solipsist). ) You'll find them both infuriating.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

What is consciousness?



watch



here



hey! pay attention




There you are! THAT is consiousness!

 

[hammegk]

I Object to Immoderation

Agreed.

 

[fenster]

Good evening, all- I've just joined the Society as well as this forum and I can see I have much to learn- there are some very interesting threads on the site and I hope you are patient with me.
On consciousness- which seems to have a subjective definition- I am reminded of Dostoyevsky: "Excessive consciousness is a disease"....as well as "the consciousness of life is higher than life itself"; I believe that there are varying levels of consciousness within humans. And perhaps this is silly, but I sometimes correllate consciousness with shame.

 

[JAK]

Good evening, all- I've just joined the Society as well as this forum and I can see I have much to learn- there are some very interesting threads on the site and I hope you are patient with me.
On consciousness- which seems to have a subjective definition- I am reminded of Dostoyevsky: "Excessive consciousness is a disease"....as well as "the consciousness of life is higher than life itself"; I believe that there are varying levels of consciousness within humans. And perhaps this is silly, but I sometimes correllate consciousness with shame.

In general, consciousness appears to be a defensive mechanism. J. Allen Hobson reports that prolonged consciousness is fatal to rats. Plus, it appears that consciousness is tied to the sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight), so your correlation of consciousness with "shame" may not be far off. Yet, I would only accept it as one of many correlations.

 

[Atlas]

Good evening, all- I've just joined the Society as well as this forum and I can see I have much to learn- there are some very interesting threads on the site and I hope you are patient with me.
On consciousness- which seems to have a subjective definition- I am reminded of Dostoyevsky: "Excessive consciousness is a disease"....as well as "the consciousness of life is higher than life itself"; I believe that there are varying levels of consciousness within humans. And perhaps this is silly, but I sometimes correllate consciousness with shame.

Good thoughts, fenster. Welcome to the forum. I think this thread has been worked to death. The ideas of consciousness that we have is something that pops up in some measure in quite a few threads though.

I wouldn't mind exploring the nature of shame. Is it learned, is it an evolutionary trait? Is it something that only God could have put in us? That kind of thing.

Why don't you open a new thread and ask the community for it's ideas on the physiological, psychological and religious underpinnings or implications of shame. Or how it has changed someone''s life. I'm not a parent so I've never really seen it weilded as a punishment tool but I've been made to feel it. It seems like it can easily be communicated or transmitted to others. We often link it to guilt but is it different.

Anyway, there are a few different angles one could take on the subject. Depending on the slant identical subjects draw different numbers of responses. As a newby you have to start your first thread sometime. This might be a good topic of interest that will let you meet some of the other posters, idea to idea.

Again, Welcome to the forum.

 

[JAK]

Good thoughts, fenster. Welcome to the forum. I think this

Again, Welcome to the forum.

Fenster, Atlas is one of the "friendlies" around here. Please compare my reply and his reply. You will readily recognize that he will be the better role model.

BTW, welcome ;-)

 

[fenster]

Thank you for the welcome, guys; Atlas- you're welcome to start a thread re:shame; you've asked the same questions I always ask- is it learned? is it one of the few things (along with consciousness) which differentiates us from all other living things? If it is a selected for trait, how could this have advantaged an individual within a population..... yes- it's a can o'worms. Thanks again, guys.

 

[Dancing David]

Indeed, I contend that "consciousness" is awareness of the surroundings and the ability to react (and assuming free will exists, act) with regards to those surroundings.

And this would fit with my point that consciousness is a series of processes or behaviors. But I may be wrong.

 

[hammegk]

Back to II's question: On close examination, what is a rock, other than processes and behaviors?

Or should we ask, what is processing and behaving?