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Define “Agnostic”

You're right, my explanation does not succeed as an exlanation. That is because you haven't understood it.

As for your contention, I agree fully. We have no disagreement on that score.

That you make that contention at all shows you haven't grasped what I was saying.
I would appreciate anyone that does understand your explanation better than I apparently do to put their hand up and re-explain it in a way that I might better understand it. . . . Anyone . . .?

ETA - Is there any post other than #403 that might help me understand better?
 
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Yes, there is.


Re. your edit to your #419 : I've never simply said "It's true." I said I've already addressed that, clearly, in this thread.
 
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About re-explaining in a way you might understand :

I explain clearly and cogently and in detail, and you either don't read them, or else count my word count as rudely accuse me of waffling.

I politely ask you if you have some difficulty handling long posts, so that I can take that into account when interacting with you, and you accuse me discorteously of disingenuity.

I start posting very briefly, and you haven't the wits to follow.



But okay, since you ask, I'll explain that again for you. But later, if you don't mind, am a bit pressed now.
 
Claiming that someone that disagrees with you is not understanding you is essentially saying "it's true" and agreement would be the automatic consequence of understanding.

That's strawmanning, pure and simple.

You asked for an explanation, and considering your fetish for small posts, I told you I'd already explained.

That you'd misunderstood me was obvious from how you framed your "contention".

But enough with these asinine exchanges. I'll answer your real question, re-explain that point, later.

Am driving now. Being driven, actually, but posting from my phone is not conducive to posting at length.

(And incidentally, that is what I had wanted to know from you, if you had some similar issue with long posts! I'm surprised you'd even consider that any half-decent person would be snarky about someone's disability!)

But enough of these personal comments, and these asinine content-freee back-and-forths. I'll be back, later, with a clear and detailed post.
 
That's strawmanning, pure and simple.

You asked for an explanation, and considering your fetish for small posts, I told you I'd already explained.

That you'd misunderstood me was obvious from how you framed your "contention".

But enough with these asinine exchanges. I'll answer your real question, re-explain that point, later.

Am driving now. Being driven, actually, but posting from my phone is not conducive to posting at length.

(And incidentally, that is what I had wanted to know from you, if you had some similar issue with long posts! I'm surprised you'd even consider that any half-decent person would be snarky about someone's disability!)

But enough of these personal comments, and these asinine content-freee back-and-forths. I'll be back, later, with a clear and detailed post.
Thanks. I await with genuine interest and desire to understand (no rush).
 
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And yet there are plenty of individual components in SF, individual descriptions of things and conditions in SF, that are closely modeled on reality, that is, they actually reflect reality (or what reality might, realistically, turn out to be going forward). That is especially true of the so-called “hard” science fiction. Arthur Clarke, for instance.

This came up -- my post that you responded to -- when David Mo equated belief in Gods with belief in centaurs, so that I pointed out to him that this wasn’t comparing apples to apples. A more symmetrical comparison would be if one compared belief in centaurs to belief in the Yahweh-God, for instance, or if one compared belief in God (in general) to belief in science fiction (in general). That is, compare specifics with specifics, and broad generalizations with broad generalizations, like with like.

And yet -- as I was saying to ynot just now -- SF, especially hard SF (but occasionally out and out romances as well) sometimes contains elements that are closely modeled on reality, or on what reality might plausibly look like in future. You sometimes get SF written by knowledgeable writers, sometimes people who're well trained in science themselves, and who're deliberately going for verisimilitude, so that much of what they describe is "true", and it would be foolish to dismiss them merely because you found these descriptions in a book of SF.

My point is, the God question is so vast, and includes so many different variations (some of which are plain wrong, without a shadow of a doubt ; some that are wholly unfalsifiable, so that rather than go into right or wrong one dismisses them in the absence of compelling evidence ; and some that well might contain elements of truth. Like SF, to dismiss "God" (that blanket idea) would be foolish, especially when one does not know what is being discussed.

Of course, this is provided these intricacies are of interest to you. Just like football intricacies are of interest to the football aficionado, while they're no more than sweaty men in children's clothes running after a ball for those who're not ; similarly, if these intricacies don't hold your interest, and if precision is not important to you, then sure, simply saying you don't believe in God (and in SF) is just fine.
Which is why I raised the SF analogy. To the extent you can, with reason, dismiss SF in general, to that extent and to that level of precision it would be reasonable to dismiss the God question in general as well.
(And incidentally : I take care to usually say "the God question" rather than simply God, because some elements of the God question do not posit God at all, and yet are wholly religious and Woo-ridden.)
And here I agree fully with you. Certainly about the unicorns, faeries, and extra-terrestrials ; and also about gods, if by “gods” you mean, for instance, the Yahweh-God and/or the Allah-God and/or the Indra-God an/or the Zeus-God, et cetera.
I insist: you are asking the wrong question. Science fiction novels are novels and like all fantasy novels they contain some realistic elements and others that are impossible. The correct question would be: Do you think it is possible that two cities like those in Clarke's novel The City and the Stars will exist in a million years' time? Of course I don't think so. But I don't know what fantastic cities have to do with the existence of gods.

Fairies, centaurs, gods and ghosts all have one thing in common: they are supernatural and mythological beings. And I am not a sceptic about that, but I deny that they exist. And if they could exist they could not be known, which is the same thing. Of course, the reasons may vary somewhat, but in essence they would be the same: it cannot be proved or refuted that they exist or the arguments in their favour have been refuted countless times. (As you know, continued failures in the test increase the probability that the thing does not exist, even if there are no definitive rebuttals.

Of course I can speak of centaurs: mythological animal with human torso and horse trunk, endowed with supernatural faculties. Example: Chiron. I can also speak of gods: supernatural mythological beings who are usually credited with the creation and control of this world, along with other superhuman characteristics in terms of longevity, knowledge, power, ubiquity, etc. They are usually worshipped and must be obeyed or go out of their way. Example: Zeus.

I am not sceptical about all this: I deny that such entities exist. And I find it astonishing that anyone can claim to be agnostic about the existence of centaurs like Chiron. Or gods like Zeus... or God the Father.

I can accept the remote possibility of some hypothetical proof of their existence: some thundering apparition - absolute knowledge does not exist and the absolute lack of doubt in human affairs is not rational -, but I do not give them the slightest chance at this stage. I don't think that tiny concession will make me an agnostic. I'm an atheist and a good atheist, thank God.

PS: As I said in another comment, I don't think there are many pure agnostics or pure atheists. It is a question of leaning more or less towards one of the positions depending on the degree of probability of a hypothetical test. In the case of the god of Christianity or the centaur Chiron, that probability seems practically null to me. That's why I'm an atheist. Hard, what's called hard, I don't see myself, but if you feel like calling me that, we are not going to get angry over such a small thing.
 
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ynot, here goes :

First, I’ll try to spell out, clearly and in detail, my earlier short-hand explanation about that SF analogy :

SF is fiction, so no reasonable person would believe it literally. That I take as obvious. The plot would be made up, as would the characters, as would the whole ‘world-building’ exercise undertaken by the author, if taken literally.

However, many SF writers are big on verisimilitude, and often well informed, and sometimes scientists in their own rights. So that individual descriptions of individual items and aspects might sometimes be literally true. Even when not literally true, for example when dealing with the future, sometimes these extrapolations may be as good approximations.

In other words, if you make a blanket statement saying “SF is bunk”, while you’ll be right enough if precision is not important to you -- precision, that is, in terms of exactly what it is within SF that you’re dismissing as bunk -- but if you wish to be precise, then you may find that within a subset of the entire SF, you’ll find some ideas and descriptions that are literally true, and others that are very well informed and very probable extrapolations. To call those bunk would obviously be wrong.

Thus : “Are centaurs real” is an easy question to answer. The answer is, “No, they are not real.”

However, “Is SF real?” is a more complex question. At one level, sure, SF isn’t real. At another level, though, much of what one finds in some kinds of SF may well be real, so that a simple “Yes” or “No” question may not suffice. At this level -- and this is a level which those without an interest in SF would consider pedantic hair-splitting, but which SF aficionados would probably find reasonable enough -- this question simply cannot be answered without giving a longer and more nuanced reply.

Not for a minute, though, is this to suggest that one literally believes in some fictitious plot or some fictitious extra-terrestrial world of some writer’s imagination.

(Of course, in some respects this analogy is labored, as all analogies always are in some way, in that this "SF aficianado" I speak of is probably mythical, or at least, you'll find only very few people who're so drawn to SF ; the rest of us merely read and enjoy SF, we generally don't go around 'studying' it.)


Right : Agreed, so far?


ynot, you never did clarify to me the reason for your aversion for long posts -- whether the phone thing, or some other issue -- but still, no matter : since it is you I am interacting with now, therefore it is you I must reach out to as best I can. So I’ll go ahead and defer to your particular quirk. Instead of presenting my entire comment, all of which I’ve already typed out, as one single post, I’ll break off the next part of my comment on to the next post, thus leaving this post (relatively) short.
 
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And now let me try to spell out clearly how I meant that SF analogy to tie in with the God question, and also discuss the specifics you'd asked me to clarify :


When asked if the God question is real, then some God ideas it is easy to firmly say “No!” to. The Yahweh-God, for instance ; and the Zeus-God ; the Ra-God ; the Indra-God ; et cetera.

These God ideas are specific, as well as (potentially) falsifiable. (Well, roughly falsifiable, at any rate.) So, one way to say “No, not real!” to them would be to say “No evidence, so I don’t believe in them.” But another and more direct way would be to actually look at what the Bible and other sources have to say about this individual God idea, see if it might possibly be true, and conclude directly that that idea cannot possibly be true, and thus actually ‘disprove’ that idea. (Using that word “disprove” loosely.) For instance, now that we know how thunder is caused, to say that Thor or Indra hurl bolts of lightning at their rival Gods is plainly wrong, directly wrong.

That’s one class of God ideas. The infantile ones, that are easily “disproven” (if only one takes the effort).


Now let’s move to the next class of God ideas. The ones for which hard atheism simply isn’t feasible, because these God ideas aren’t falsifiable. Take Advaita : simplistically, Advaita posits that there is one single consciousness. That’s all there is, this consciousness, nothing else. This consciousness gives rise, spontaneously, to the entire complex creation. Everything arises and falls within it. Creation roils forth from it, and in Dissolution recedes back into it. And thus the cycle goes on and on and on. This idea of the ancients is quite sophisticated actually, and in a way might seem to pre-empt some of the ideas of modern physics. Nevertheless, I would say this apparent sophistication is merely because this idea is unexpected ; and ultimately, this too is (probably) bunk, this too is (probably) just as fictitious as the more oafish God ideas.

But how, exactly, do we say this idea is fictitious? This idea is not falsifiable. So we don’t really go into right or wrong, because we simply can’t, but instead simply ask for evidence that this is so. And since there is no such evidence, then sure, we simply toss that idea aside as some ancients’ fevered imagination, fueled perhaps by cannabis or peyote or whatever it is they put in their pipes. But we’re strictly soft-atheistic about this idea, never ever hard-atheistic -- simply because this idea isn't falsifiable.


Finally, there’re some God ideas that might actually be true, kinda sorta true (much like SF is sometimes true, that is, certain individual elements within SF might be true). For instance, full two and a half millennia ago, the Buddha spoke of No-Self. He said, apparently from his direct intuition, and wholly counter-intuitively, that our sense of a separate “Self” is merely fiction. It doesn’t actually exist, it is instead an illusion created by our thoughts “arising and falling”. And that is what modern neuroscience appears to be saying, as well. Now does that mean that all of Buddhism, along with the Bodhisattvas and the Dakinis and what have you, are all true? As with SF, obviously not! And yet, this element still remains. (And of course, this isn’t "God" per se. That’s why I keep saying “God idea” rather than God.) But this too is religion, this too is Woo. Except for this small part that is true, or at least half-true, the rest is wholly fictitious. But still, a small portion still does turn out to be true, or at least, to be kinda sorta true. Much like with SF.


Fair? Agreed?


Therefore, if someone asks you, “Do you believe in (the God idea)?”, then, if precision is important to you, precision in terms of what it is you are saying you believe or disbelieve, and if you are aware of these very many diverse God ideas -- and if this question is of any real enduring interest to you -- then you simply cannot respond with a blanket “Yes” or “No”. (If pressed, you’ll say “No!”, absolutely you'll say you don't believe if pressed for a one-word answer. But you’d much prefer being able to give a more nuanced answer.)

You’re atheistic, absolutely. Not a shadow of a doubt about that! You don’t believe in any of this mumbo jumbo, for which no evidence is proffered. Nevertheless, because you are aware of all of these details, all of these nuances, therefore, your particular route to atheism, when it comes to the general God idea, is igtheism. (You say “The question is too general, too vague, and as such does not make sense. But in as much as I don’t say that I believe, sure, you can take me to be atheistic, you can interpret that broadly to mean that I don’t believe.)


Again : much like discussions around intricacies of football or cricket or chess or SF would feel like crazy unproductive hair-splitting to those uninterested in football or cricket or chess or SF, similarly, these nuances about religion will only matter if you’re interested in this idea at all. I myself am interested in these ideas. I’m no theist, not by a long shot, but this idea interests me, fascinates me. If it does not interest you, you are free not to go into this level of detail. Obviously.


That’s about it. Sorry, this post turned out a bit longer than the previous one!

Does this make sense, what I've said in these two posts? Do we agree? Feel free to ask whatever specifics you might wish to ask, I’ll answer as best I can. (After all, this is no more than my own personal POV, and there may well be inconsistencies and inaccuracies there that I am myself not aware of.)



ETA : It appears from David Mo's subsequent post that he'd implicitly been focusing primarily on Christianity all through. I expect that would explain why we'd apparently been talking past each other thus far. If that is how it is with you too, then perhaps you could check out my post #431, just below, addressed to him, where I try to clarify this aspect.
 
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I insist: you are asking the wrong question. Science fiction novels are novels and like all fantasy novels they contain some realistic elements and others that are impossible. The correct question would be: Do you think it is possible that two cities like those in Clarke's novel The City and the Stars will exist in a million years' time? Of course I don't think so. But I don't know what fantastic cities have to do with the existence of gods.

Fairies, centaurs, gods and ghosts all have one thing in common: they are supernatural and mythological beings. And I am not a sceptic about that, but I deny that they exist. And if they could exist they could not be known, which is the same thing. Of course, the reasons may vary somewhat, but in essence they would be the same: it cannot be proved or refuted that they exist or the arguments in their favour have been refuted countless times. (As you know, continued failures in the test increase the probability that the thing does not exist, even if there are no definitive rebuttals.

Of course I can speak of centaurs: mythological animal with human torso and horse trunk, endowed with supernatural faculties. Example: Chiron. I can also speak of gods: supernatural mythological beings who are usually credited with the creation and control of this world, along with other superhuman characteristics in terms of longevity, knowledge, power, ubiquity, etc. They are usually worshipped and must be obeyed or go out of their way. Example: Zeus.

I am not sceptical about all this: I deny that such entities exist. And I find it astonishing that anyone can claim to be agnostic about the existence of centaurs like Chiron. Or gods like Zeus... or God the Father.

I can accept the remote possibility of some hypothetical proof of their existence: some thundering apparition - absolute knowledge does not exist and the absolute lack of doubt in human affairs is not rational -, but I do not give them the slightest chance at this stage. I don't think that tiny concession will make me an agnostic. I'm an atheist and a good atheist, thank God.

PS: As I said in another comment, I don't think there are many pure agnostics or pure atheists. It is a question of leaning more or less towards one of the positions depending on the degree of probability of a hypothetical test. In the case of the god of Christianity or the centaur Chiron, that probability seems practically null to me. That's why I'm an atheist. Hard, what's called hard, I don't see myself, but if you feel like calling me that, we are not going to get angry over such a small thing.


It seems you haven’t really grasped my explanation, or caught on to the point I was trying to make. And since neither ynot nor you, the two persons to whom I’d specifically addressed those posts, could properly understand my 'explanation', then I suppose it’s likely that it is my earlier explanation itself (rather than your combined power of comprehension) that had been wanting! :)

I’ve had another go at explaining this part to ynot, in greater detail like he asked me to, in my two posts just preceding (#429 and #430). Go through them, would you, and see if what I’m saying now makes sense?

One thing I’d like to emphasize, basis what you say here in your post. It seems from what you say that your focus is primarily on Christianity. Broadly speaking (that is, leaving out some bits of allegedly experiential mystic literature that I do not rightly know what to make of in terms of how true they are -- because those are hardly mainstream Christianity, so that it might be best not get embroiled in that side-issue now) I’m entirely with you : like you, I’m neither igtheistic, nor soft-atheistic, but out-and-out hard-atheistic when it comes to Christianity. (So that we have no need for those words and nuances, and I can simply and directly agree with you that like you, I’m atheistic, period.)

Likewise, it is easy enough to dismiss Islam directly. (Again, broadly speaking : that is, without for the present getting lost in the details of the alleged experiential mysticism of Sufism, which again I find fascinating, but which needn’t concern us now for the space of this discussion).

However, there are very many God ideas beyond these three Abrahamic faiths. And while most of them are just as cartoonish, and therefore easily dismissed, nevertheless there are some that contain elements that simply cannot, with reason, be dismissed directly (albeit they can indeed be dismissed indirectly, which is what the soft atheist does). And a few of these (non-Abrahamic) God ideas do actually contain some elements that may be real in some sense.



Right : so now, keeping this in mind, perhaps you could go through those two posts of mine, and then we’ll see if we’re any closer to understanding each other, or to agreeing with each other.

(Always provided this discussion is of interest to you! Otherwise -- if this further clarification that ynot has asked me for does not interest you personally -- then as you say in your post, we already do understand each other, basis our past discussion, as two reasonable human beings, both eschewing superstition and blind faith and religion, and both atheistic, broadly speaking ; and we can simply leave it at that.)
 
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ynot, you never did clarify to me the reason for your aversion for long posts -- whether the phone thing, or some other issue -- but still, no matter : since it is you I am interacting with now, therefore it is you I must reach out to as best I can. So I’ll go ahead and defer to your particular quirk. Instead of presenting my entire comment, all of which I’ve already typed out, as one single post, I’ll break off the next part of my comment on to the next post, thus leaving this post (relatively) short.
Yes I did clarify. Perhaps my cheeky use of the word “waffle” may have blinded you to the content of the entire post, so I’ve changed it for you . . .
Regardless that I do have a “particular variation of dyslexia” and a “kind of attention interest deficit disorder”, my aversion toward verbosity is neither uncommon nor the result of “some kind of a medical condition”. It is in fact quite a normal response to “waffle” verbosity.

Verbose - “If you describe a person or a piece of writing as verbose, you are critical of them because they use more words than are necessary, and so make you feel bored and/or annoyed
In case you still don’t understand: Having an aversion to verbosity is not peculiar to me, it’s a very common aversion that many if not most people have. And it’s not an aversion that results from a medical condition or handicap.

Busy right now so will respond to the rest when I have time . . .
 
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Thanks for your time and effort.
SF is fiction, so no reasonable person would believe it literally. That I take as obvious. The plot would be made up, as would the characters, as would the whole ‘world-building’ exercise undertaken by the author, if taken literally.
Agreed, and that’s ALL that science fiction is. Science fact mixed with science fiction as “believable” content of a fictional story to make it more "believable", doesn’t make the science fiction content any less fictional. Mixing ten truths with one lie doesn’t make the lie any less a lie. That’s my answer to the rest of your “points” in your posts.

Your recent posts don’t add anything new or change the understanding I previously concluded from your earlier posts.

Briefly, this is my understanding of your “point” . . .

Fiction is purely fictional, but fictional stories that contain fact as well as fiction are not purely fictional. The more facts included in the story, the less fictional it is. The factual content of fictional stories can have an educational value.

Is this a correct understanding? Did I miss anything?
 
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Why this curious aversion of yours for long posts? Do you have some kind of a medical condition, some particular variation of dyslexia, some particular kind of attention deficit disorder, something like that? Or might it be that you use a phone, as opposed to a regular computer, so that larger posts are relatively difficult for you to handle?

I’m not being snarky in asking this! And nor do I mean to be at all rude. Just curious.


Suggesting that ynot may be afflicted with some medical condition is not snarky??? Is this what passes as a conciliatory approach with you?

I have an aversion to excessively long post also and don't bother reading many. I think the art of conversation is enhanced by someone using fewer words rather than more in carrying an argument. To use so many words and then accuse the reader of being in mental deficit, because he/she does not read them all won't get you far.

You seem to be the one afflicted not the reluctant reader. We have had others who've exhibited this condition before. Writing pages of script with masses of analogies, justifications, and qualifications. Get their noses out of joint when no one bothers with them anymore. Usually go out with a flounce.
 
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Suggesting that ynot may be afflicted with some medical condition is not snarky??? Is this what passes as a conciliatory approach with you?

I have an aversion to excessively long post also and don't bother reading many. I think the art of conversation is enhanced by someone using fewer words rather than more in carrying an argument. To use so many words and then accuse the reader of being in mental deficit, because he/she does not read them all won't get you far.

You seem to be the one afflicted not the reluctant reader. We have had others who've exhibited this condition before. Writing pages of script with masses of analogies, justifications, and qualifications. Get their noses out of joint when no one bothers with them anymore. Usually go out with a flounce.
Apparently verbosity is a symptom of Asperger's.

"People with Asperger's have no problem acquiring language, but they often use it in peculiar ways. They may be verbose and use unnecessarily big words." - Link
 
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It seems from what you say that your focus is primarily on Christianity.
I don’t think so. I have mentioned five or six different religions at last.

Now let’s move to the next class of God ideas. The ones for which hard atheism simply isn’t feasible, because these God ideas aren’t falsifiable. Take Advaita : simplistically, Advaita posits that there is one single consciousness. That’s all there is, this consciousness, nothing else. This consciousness gives rise, spontaneously, to the entire complex creation. Everything arises and falls within it. Creation roils forth from it, and in Dissolution recedes back into it. And thus the cycle goes on and on and on. This idea of the ancients is quite sophisticated actually, and in a way might seem to pre-empt some of the ideas of modern physics. (...)
But how, exactly, do we say this idea is fictitious? This idea is not falsifiable. So we don’t really go into right or wrong, because we simply can’t, but instead simply ask for evidence that this is so. And since there is no such evidence, then sure, we simply toss that idea aside as some ancients’ fevered imagination, fueled perhaps by cannabis or peyote or whatever it is they put in their pipes. But we’re strictly soft-atheistic about this idea, never ever hard-atheistic -- simply because this idea isn't falsifiable.


Finally, there’re some God ideas that might actually be true, kinda sorta true (much like SF is sometimes true, that is, certain individual elements within SF might be true). For instance, full two and a half millennia ago, the Buddha spoke of No-Self. He said, apparently from his direct intuition, and wholly counter-intuitively, that our sense of a separate “Self” is merely fiction. It doesn’t actually exist, it is instead an illusion created by our thoughts “arising and falling”. And that is what modern neuroscience appears to be saying, as well. (...)

Fair? Agreed?
Absolutely NO!
This Advaita is an empty-idea of god. A god that doesn’t manifest himself in any thing is superfluous and not worth to waste a minute discussing about. Molière made an intelligent satire of this blah-blah: “Mihi a docto doctore domandatur causam et rationem quare opium facit dormire : A quoi respondeo, quia est in eo virtus dormitiva” (Latin is not incidental). It is to say: Opium sleeps because it has “sleeping substance”. If we stare to the world and we just see the world, Advaita is only “virtus orbis-terrae”, worldly substance, that is, the world itself and nothing else. If you ask if I believe in Advaita it will be the same than asking if I believe the world exists. Any ulterior discussion about agnosticism or atheism focused on Advaita has no sense because we would be speaking about nothing.

Budha’s idea about the non-existence of the Self is also empty. Furthermore, it has not any relation with the problem of gods, then I don’t see it is useful in our discussion.
 
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Suggesting that ynot may be afflicted with some medical condition is not snarky??? Is this what passes as a conciliatory approach with you?

I have an aversion to excessively long post also and don't bother reading many. I think the art of conversation is enhanced by someone using fewer words rather than more in carrying an argument. To use so many words and then accuse the reader of being in mental deficit, because he/she does not read them all won't get you far.

You seem to be the one afflicted not the reluctant reader. We have had others who've exhibited this condition before. Writing pages of script with masses of analogies, justifications, and qualifications. Get their noses out of joint when no one bothers with them anymore. Usually go out with a flounce.


Wow! Just wow!

It is madness to waste any more time on these entirely content-free, wholly personal, and offensively worded gibberings that you seem to specialize in, but this one single point I absolutely have to make. Your implicit accusation that I’ve been making fun of other people’s disability, and callously making insinuations about ynot's mental health, is an out-and-out lie, a small-minded and malevolent distortion of truth, and I cannot possibly allow it to go unchallenged.

There was absolutely no snark intended in my asking ynot the reason for his aversion to long posts.

To be clear : I have absolutely no need to be defensive about this. I am perfectly free to direct some amount of snark at ynot if I want to, as long as I do it tastefully and inoffensively, as I have in fact done earlier in response to his initial attempt at a put-down directed at me : but in this case, it seemed very clear to me that he couldn’t parse long posts, and I was only trying to ascertain if indeed this is the case. This is not necessarily at all uncommon : for instance, as I mentioned upthread, I myself am not comfortable either reading or composing long posts from my phone (on those very rare occasions when I do use a phone, as opposed to a regular computer). Knowing the reason for ynot’s particular difficulty, if any, would have helped me alter my posting style in order to accommodate his particular issue, when interacting specifically with him. It was neither “snarky” nor “conciliatory” -- I don’t know why you imagine it must be the one or the other -- simply a request for information, made for wholly courteous and considerate reasons.

And to make sure that my question wouldn’t end up being mistaken for snark, I did spell out my intentions clearly, both in that post, and later on. Why is this simple fact so very difficult for you to understand?

For one thing, no half-decent person would ever use another man’s disability, or callously refer to such disabilities in general, as a put-down. And nor would any half-decent person lie outright about their intentions. That your default assumption seems to be that these very commonplace and commonly accepted rules of decency didn’t apply in this case, that gives one pause about what you might be projecting from within yourself, or at least from within your surroundings, on to me here.
 
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Yes I did clarify. Perhaps my cheeky use of the word “waffle” may have blinded you to the content of the entire post, so I’ve changed it for you . . .

In case you still don’t understand: Having an aversion to verbosity is not peculiar to me, it’s a very common aversion that many if not most people have. And it’s not an aversion that results from a medical condition or handicap.

Busy right now so will respond to the rest when I have time . . .


Apparently verbosity is a symptom of Asperger's.

"People with Asperger's have no problem acquiring language, but they often use it in peculiar ways. They may be verbose and use unnecessarily big words." - Link


Verbosity is different from length. A 700-page book may be a pleasure to read, while a very small ill-conceived post may a total waste of space.

I'm not saying everything I write is necessarily engaging. That would be laughably arrogant of me.

But look at this post, ynot. Post #384, on page 10 of this thead. I remember it was the post I wrote in response to your first post addressing me. Do you really mean to sit there and tell me what I'm now going to copy below from that post, is at all out of place or verbose in a thread that is actually about the meaning of the word Agnosticism? You did not respond to this post of mine : which indicates, regardless of the general merits or demerits of my posting style, that your disengagement with certain posts comes from some motivation different from a mere aversion to "verbosity". It could be an aversion for long posts in general, sure, -- which is a different category than verbose posts -- and that is why I had asked about your apparent aversion for long posts.

Here, let me copy verbatim from my post #384 what I had said to you. I'm copying it and setting it apart by using italics, as opposed to simply quoting it, so that it shows up in any reply you may choose to make to this post.

Here, here's what you apparently found "verbose" :



But seriously, ynot -- these delightful ice-breaking pleasantries having been dealt with now, on both sides -- since it’s very clear now that you’ve been reading my posts after all, may I ask if you have any thoughts around what I’ve been saying here?

To summarize, I’ve been saying the following about the word Agnosticism :
  1. The word ‘agnosticism’ carries not just one meaning, but a number of meanings, some of which I’ve presented here.
  2. That this word has more than one meaning may be confusing, but this is not really all that surprising, since many words in English do have more than one meaning, sometimes even opposing meanings. Like it or not, that’s how this language works.
  3. Often, people talk past one another when speaking of agnosticism (and atheism), simply because they’re using these words in different senses.
  4. Therefore, the easy way out is to recognize these trivial semantic disagreements for what they are, and bypass them by clearly addressing the semantic issue head-on (or else simply discussing the underlying ideas directly).
  5. All this is provided you wish to discuss these things at all. If you don’t, well that’s that. No one is going to force you to discuss the intricacies of football, or of chess, or of quantum physics, or of women’s fashion, or of some facet of literature, or the different nuances of this God question, unless you want to. But in that case, the obvious thing to remember is that others may have an interest in subjects that leave you yourself unmoved.
  6. Finally : Huxley’s writings show that his own sense about this word he coined, about Agnosticism, was very close to what we mean today when we use the word Skepticism. Huxley’s Agnostic was no different, really, from a Skeptic! (Although sure, people do use that word, Agnosticism, in senses very different from that particular formulation. I’m not claiming that Huxley’s nuance is the one true meaning of this word, I merely offer this as an interesting piece of information, given the topic of this thread, and given that most of us here would self-describe as Skeptics.)
Seeing that you’re the OP of this thread, the one who’s organized this particular party, do you have any thoughts around these ideas that I presented, that you want to share?




Have you anything to say for yourself, ynot?
 
Thanks for your time and effort. (...)


My pleasure. And given the general tenor that our discussion seems to have ended up on, I thank you for your kind and courteous words.


(...) Agreed, and that’s ALL that science fiction is. Science fact mixed with science fiction as “believable” content of a fictional story to make it more "believable", doesn’t make the science fiction content any less fictional. Mixing ten truths with one lie doesn’t make the lie any less a lie. That’s my answer to the rest of your “points” in your posts.

Your recent posts don’t add anything new or change the understanding I previously concluded from your earlier posts.

Briefly, this is my understanding of your “point” . . .

Fiction is purely fictional, but fictional stories that contain fact as well as fiction are not purely fictional. The more facts included in the story, the less fictional it is. The factual content of fictional stories can have an educational value.

Is this a correct understanding? Did I miss anything?


This "understanding" of yours, that you describe, is different from what you had said earlier, and different from what you yourself say in the first part of your post.

Read your own post : don't you see a separate nuance in your own post, in the part where you write down you understanding, than you present in the first part?

In as much you have now understood this, and had not understood it earlier (or at least, had not articulated it earlier), I think my post did add to your understanding, wouldn't you say?


Let me add two further nuances to what you say there :

  1. This wouldn’t refer to purely trivial ‘truths’, like the names of cities and countries and geographies, that sort of thing. But yes, it would apply to, say, a submarine being described many, many years before one was built, so that even with the inaccuracies in that portrayal (from what reality turned out to be), people reading that book back then at that time may have gleaned an important bit of information (given that most people then wouldn’t ever had occasion to think along those lines at all).

  2. It isn’t quite that “The more facts included in the story, the less fictional it is” -- that is, the story itself remains wholly fictional -- but yes, the entire work (not the story itself, not the plot itself) may be considered, in this sense, less fictional than another story that is an out and out fantasy. So that if you dismiss that entire work as fiction, you may need to clarify which parts of it you are dismissing. (Provided the parts that are true are meaningful to you.)


And that was the first of the two posts, post #429. You now need to see how that applies to the religion question itself now, and also look at the actual specifics that you had asked me to describe ; which I have tried to put down in the longer post, my post #430.
 

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