Debate! What debate?

[HyJinX]

Nevertheless, some steel appears to have melted in the WTC prior to the collapse of the buildings. Interestingly some of the NISTIANs posting on this site appear to be bothered by that, preferring to deny the physical evidence for molten iron.....

Was there or was there not molten steel...or does it just appear to be that way? If so, what evidence do you have of this molten steel?

I don't have the educational background to debate the mathematics or science...I'll leave that for the others...but the quote above confuses me. Please explain.

 

[Belz...]

JREF is only one corner of the world, and if nobody here who is qualified is at all is interested, well, I'll have to keep looking until I find somebody.

If all you're looking for is someone who agrees with you, go to LCF.

Should your calculations of "energy surplus" be valid, that would be a much stronger argument for non-CD.

As if Mack would actually need to prove this. CD is an extraordinary claim, with no supporting evidence.

 

[Belz...]

Anti-Sophist:

"How am I to interpret these two posts, taken together?"

That's easy: "WHAT'S GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER"

I see. So basically you can chastise people for using strategy X, and then use X, using your opponent's use of X to justify yourself using X.

We have a word for that, you know.

 

[Belz...]

Nevertheless, some steel appears to have melted in the WTC prior to the collapse of the buildings. Interestingly some of the NISTIANs posting on this site appear to be bothered by that, preferring to deny the physical evidence for molten iron.....

Oh, the IRONy!

What I find even more interesting is how quickly you revert to accusing people of having a cult mentality, appended to your theories and reasoning. Perhaps you could separate the two ?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Frank, have you considered taking it up with the authors of one of the studies regarding Iron-rich spheres. Especially considering the report I read states that they were expected to be present in WTC Dust.
Best Scott

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache...eres+sphere+wtc&d=J_mdLvmdOeY8&icp=1&.intl=us

<B>Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of
the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be
expected to be present in WTC Dust.</B> These products are:
• Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
• Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contentsDamage Assessment
• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials

That is the problem the temperature data provide by Nist does not account for the high temperatures evident in the early air samples.
Or for the Zinc, and Dr. Greening is an honest man, so it forces him to explore other possible reactions and causes.
Can you blame some one for telling the truth, even though he is not a Member of the truth movement?
I have thought the same thing for a while now, but have not expressed it much who is going to listen to me anyway, so I have been looking silently for the mechanism.
I must admit I have found clues but no sure mechanism or reaction at this time.
Other then a sulfate steel reaction in the concrete causing another reaction yes Aluminum oxidation I am stumped on this one, and I freely admit it.
The truth is the truth, and sometimes even though it hurts that is all you have.

 

[T.A.M.]

Scientists:

Since the new "scientists" recently posting on this forum have a distaste for non-scientists discussing things related to such, I will, as a physician with only basic college physics, chemistry, education, keep my posts here to a minimum.

1. Is the only evidence you have for "molten iron" at GZ, besides vague nonspecific witness references to "molten metal", the spherical Fe particles? If not, what other evidence of "Molten Iron" do you have?

2. As others have posted, could the Fe spherical particles have come from torches used to cut away the iron at GZ, and also come crom "sparks" of iron, that would have occured due to frictional forces as the towers collapsed, etc...?

TAM

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Was there or was there not molten steel...or does it just appear to be that way? If so, what evidence do you have of this molten steel?

I don't have the educational background to debate the mathematics or science...I'll leave that for the others...but the quote above confuses me. Please explain.

The Spheres do not form with out the melting of the material steel though some process that involves extreme heating, over 1500c or more I believe. They are most commonly formed in steel making in degassing the process of removing carbon monoxide-carbon dioxide from the steel, to lower the carbon level of the steel.
Or they can be formed in the carbon boil process that both refines iron ore into iron, and creates carbon Dioxide. in the process, the carbon boil process has been known to happen in extreme chimney fires where rusted metal is involved or where the steel ignites from exposure to a large influx of oxygen.

I do not believe this to be the case here though the samples are simply to large and wide spread for that.

 

[Kent1]

That is the problem the temperature data provide by Nist does not account for the high temperatures evident in the early air samples.
Or for the Zinc, and Dr. Greening is an honest man, so it forces him to explore other possible reactions and causes.
Can you blame some one for telling the truth, even though he is not a Member of the truth movement?
I have thought the same thing for a while now, but have not expressed it much who is going to listen to me anyway, so I have been looking silently for the mechanism.
I must admit I have found clues but no sure mechanism or reaction at this time.
Other then a sulfate steel reaction in the concrete causing another reaction yes Aluminum oxidation I am stumped on this one, and I freely admit it.
The truth is the truth, and sometimes even though it hurts that is all you have.

I suspect much of this has to do with friction and the collapse itself. Steel can also start to melt at around 1300C. Fires can reach this temp. especially with plastic. Although I suspect that may be the lesser part of it.
I have no doubt there was some steel melted. Also something to take in to account is fire temps. before collapse, and after. NIST focus is on general fire temps during. I've also seen some interesting ideas come from your posts.

The Zinc I've commented to Frank before through PM. He never gave me an good reply. I have no problem with the Zinc. More importantly its seems nor do others who did the study.
http://www.911myths.com/html/zinc_at_the_wtc.html

So far it seems the same can also be said about the iron.

I would also suggest others read the physorg discussion for more of the debate
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=12383&st=1470

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Scientists:

Since the new "scientists" recently posting on this forum have a distaste for non-scientists discussing things related to such, I will, as a physician with only basic college physics, chemistry, education, keep my posts here to a minimum.

1. Is the only evidence you have for "molten iron" at GZ, besides vague nonspecific witness references to "molten metal", the spherical Fe particles? If not, what other evidence of "Molten Iron" do you have?

2. As others have posted, could the Fe spherical particles have come from torches used to cut away the iron at GZ, and also come crom "sparks" of iron, that would have occured due to frictional forces as the towers collapsed, etc...?

TAM

It seems they are in some of the earliest air data and no one uses an oxygen lance with galvanized steel pipe as the cutting rod. It produces toxic metals so the Zinc with the iron discounts that! There may be other sources for the Zinc, but not the cutting operations.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I hope this does not sound like a dumb question but I thought that I would just make sure this is Dr. Frank Greening, in a recent Email I indicated that I love strawberries, Apollo20, what do I like with my straw berries do you remember it was in the email about the Calcium Thiosulfate? Dr. Frank Greening will have that email, and only Dr. Greening.

 

[T.A.M.]

Zinc is an incredibly common element, so I am not surprised to have it show up in the samples.

What does Apollo feel the cause of the spherical iron particles are? and Metamars, what do you think are the cause of the particles? Chainsaw, what do you think are the cause? R. Mackey, what do you think are the cause?

TAM

 

[Yurebiz]

I suspect much of this has to do with friction and the collapse itself. Steel can also start to melt at around 1300C. Fires can reach this temp. especially with plastic. Although I suspect that may be the lesser part of it.

Is this true? Office fires can reach 1300C? And Steel can melt at this temperature? Holy crap. Fire is really awesome. Maybe demolition companies should just start demolishing buildings by pilling up that plastic stuff near core columns!

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Zinc is an incredibly common element, so I am not surprised to have it show up in the samples.

What does Apollo feel the cause of the spherical iron particles are? and Metamars, what do you think are the cause of the particles? Chainsaw, what do you think are the cause? R. Mackey, what do you think are the cause?

TAM

If the cutting operations can be ruled out.
Pyrophoric iron, creating hot iron oxide dropping into molten aluminum would create the spheres, but the work is not finished on that, and it can only occur under and in the concrete in a low oxygen environment form sulfates used in that manufacture of the concrete.
The problem is I do not know which accelerators,http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/materialsgrp/acclerat.htm or which wetting agents were used in the concrete, when they were used, or how they were used. All would matter greatly. Theoretically any steel exposed to sulfates in the concrete could form Pyrophoric iron when exposed to oxygen it burns.
That mean both the floor pans and the reinforcing steel in the slabs would burn when exposed to oxygen.
The science for light weight concrete was not very well developed in the 1970s there was a lot of new experimentation. Gypsum was also used in some light weight concretes. lignosulfonic acids-http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/materialsgrp/water.htm wetting agents are a compound that I intend on testing later on, but all I have been able to test so far is Gypsum, and Calcium thiosulfate.
I must say the I am working on this, but do not have a definite answer.

 

[Kent1]

Is this true? Office fires can reach 1300C? And Steel can melt at this temperature? Holy crap. Fire is really awesome. Maybe demolition companies should just start demolishing buildings by pilling up that plastic stuff near core columns!

Yes it can. However I suspect hotter temps were after the collapse. I'm too lazy to explain it to you. So here. Tell your friends.
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Is this true? Office fires can reach 1300C? And Steel can melt at this temperature? Holy crap. Fire is really awesome. Maybe demolition companies should just start demolishing buildings by pilling up that plastic stuff near core columns!

Do you want you cyanide capsule now, or do you just want to sniff the burning plastics at your proposed CD?

 

[kookbreaker]

Holy crap. Fire is really awesome. Maybe demolition companies should just start demolishing buildings by pilling up that plastic stuff near core columns!

If it weren't for the random nature of a set-piece fire they might actually be able to do just that. But the problem is that you can't depend on all the columns reaching the critical failure points at the same time. This is why the WTC tower collapses were so damaging to their surroundings: There was nothing controlled about their collapse.

Furthermore, when you get right down to it, cutting charges are using the same principle. Only they are doing it much, much more directly. A cutting charge does not blast the column away with concussion, it cuts it with plasma. Take a look at this column burned by a cutting charge: You can see where it was cut with a torch (to allow access for the charge) and the more purple area where the charge cut the column.

Enjoy.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I suspect much of this has to do with friction and the collapse itself. Steel can also start to melt at around 1300C. Fires can reach this temp. especially with plastic. Although I suspect that may be the lesser part of it.
I have no doubt there was some steel melted. Also something to take in to account is fire temps. before collapse, and after. NIST focus is on general fire temps during. I've also seen some interesting ideas come from your posts.

The Zinc I've commented to Frank before through PM. He never gave me an good reply. I have no problem with the Zinc. More importantly its seems nor do others who did the study.
http://www.911myths.com/html/zinc_at_the_wtc.html

So far it seems the same can also be said about the iron.

I would also suggest others read the physorg discussion for more of the debate
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=12383&st=1470

Actually iron steel can ignite at 1350c, and become fuel.
It is not that Zinc is found in the dust but the large amount of Zinc that is found in the dust.

I agree people should read the physorg discussion.

 

[Kent1]

Actually iron steel can ignite at 1350c, and become fuel.
It is not that Zinc is found in the dust but the large amount of Zinc that is found in the dust.

I agree people should read the physorg discussion.

Yes but I've never seen the Zinc debate quantified very well. How much is too much? We know there were many sources of Zinc.
And why doesn't this raise flags with people doing the study. They don't seem to have a problem.

 

[apathoid]

Yes it can. However I suspect hotter temps were after the collapse. I'm too lazy to explain it to you. So here. Tell your friends.
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

This is something that doesn't get talked about nearly enough here.

Underground it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6. (Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/congress/9-11_commission/030401-holden.htm

RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_debris_06.html

.....and molten steel:

Three of the four springs exhibited a decarburized ferrite microstructure, with oxidation on the top surface. Such a microstructure is typical of steel exposed to temperatures in the range of 1800°F [982 °C].

One of the wire ends exhibited a ferrite microstructure with oxidation on the top surface and incipient melting at the grain boundaries. This particular wire end had attained temperatures of between 2100°F [1148 °C] and 2200°F [1204 °C]. This wire end had, in fact, just begun to melt, which is what we would expect if there was melting further down the wire.
http://www.atslab.com/fire/PDF/MeltedSteel.pdf

......from a housefire.

There is a reason why we don't like arguments from personal incredulity Yurebiz.

 

[~enigma~]

BELZ, GRAVY, ENIGMA, PARDALIS:

Since all of you appear to believe/support the NIST Report, I am interested in your qualifications and/or experience in the fields of ENGINEERING, PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY, or MATERIALS SCIENCE.

If you do indeed have a background in chemistry, metallurgy or materials science, could you please tell me: what is your scientific understanding of the significance of micron sized iron spheres in the WTC dust.

But if you lack credentials or hands-on experience in any of the areas of scientific enquiry noted above, I wonder why you consider your OPINIONS on the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 of interest or value to anyone......

R. MACKEY:

I am still thinking about those lateral forces.....

My interest in this thread is to watch someone prove you are what I already called you and I will call you again..a sock of 28th Kindgdom.