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Debate! What debate?

TS:

Theory #4:

He has issues with the truth movement, and their outrageous "scientific theories" on what really happened on 9/11, so decided to show just how easy it is to "make up" a theory that might have scientific merit, simply because the attacks were so complex, and involved so many unknowns.

TAM:)

I don't as yet see anyone buying Dr. Greening's new theory. So it's not so easy to "make up" a theory that gains supporters. Let me know if anyone thinks it has any merit.
 
Hmm. I thought I had Mr. Greening's contact info but I cannot seem to find it readily on my computer at present. If someone has it handy, can you please PM me with same?

(I believe that he is physically located reasonably close to me, and I would like to invite him out for lunch or dinner and discussion.)
 
Well, I for one am disappointed.

You'll note that Dr. Greening didn't address any of my questions, either regarding his new theory, his old conclusions, or the reason for his conduct.

All this nonsense is totally unnecessary. Apollo20, you could have come here saying Hey, guys, I've got a few problems with the NIST report. Here they are and here's why I think they're wrong. Oh, and by the way, I can come up with a conspiracy theory of my own that makes more sense than the Truth Movement ever did. And not one of the regulars here would take issue with that at all. Such a discussion could be quite useful.

Anyway, regarding your ammonium perchlorate theory, I don't think it would work. My shop -- right next to my office, in fact -- was one of the larger users of ammonium perchlorate of all time, primarily to assemble JATO bottles for military aircraft. Forty years later, they're still trying to get the chemicals out of the groundwater at monumental expense. It leaks, it persists, and it's something that is fairly easy to test for. There's absolutely no way, in my opinion, that all of it would be combusted, under any scenario. Certainly not in the chaos of an aircraft impact.

The theory -- excuse me, idea -- also makes no sense. The ammonium perchlorate plays the simple role of an accelerant, correct? Can't you come up with a better one?

Here's my variation on your movie script: Knowing the 767's were coming the following week, evil ninjas infiltrated the secretarial services of WTC companies, and delivered thousands of reams of extra copier paper to the 10 floors nearest the impact. The scads of extra paper, left nearby the elevators -- and therefore, near the critical core columns -- would be an innocuous source of extra flammability, leaving no traces distinguishable from an ordinary office fire, but providing just enough extra energy to doom the Towers.

Pretty silly, huh?

To even entertain these theories, any variation at all, first we need to show that the Towers needed an extra source of energy. Otherwise, such theories are not falsifiable. And your own previous work answers in the negative. That's about all there is to it.
 
Because evil ninjas will do these things just for the fun of it. Cuts down on expenses.
 
I actually kinda like Apollo's movie script.

However, given that AP is an extremely strong oxidizer, wouldn't it have tended to etch and eventually rust the steel? Perchlorates are hygroscopic, tending to pull water out of the air, diluting them. We use it where I work to etch metals for analytical chemistry analysis.

They also tend to react explosively in contact with organic materials. So, my next question is, how did these perchlorates manage to remain free of contact with organic materials (and subsequent explosion) for the many years it coated the steel? Also how did all the maintenance , telephone , computer wiring, and HVAC workers, etc. manage to avoid causing an explosion from striking the material with a hammer, hitting it with a saw blade, etc.?

Corrections to my thinking are welcome.
 
What I find even more odd is that we were told he has wanted to come here and post for some time, then when he does he posts what he did, makes a few replies to people, then vanishes.

Very strange.

TAM:)
 
Like others, I'm confused.

For one thing, not to be uncharitable, but coming to a forum and presenting ideas you don't believe (but pretend to believe) yourself, in order to observe the reactions they provoke -- isn't that pretty much the definition of trolling?

As for the theory itself... what's the connection to the iron sphericles? Are we to conjecture that the perchlorate reaction reached sufficiently high temperatures to melt the steel, which then atomized into fine droplets during the collapse? If so, given that the perchlorate covered large a large surface area of the steel, why were vastly greater amounts of sphericles not produced?

(I'm interested in the actual iron sphericle concentration and size distribution in the dust near ground zero because it also is part of falsifying demolition-by-thermite. Large amounts of thermite would have been required, most of which would have already been converted to its reaction products, molten iron and solidified aluminum oxide spray, by the time collapse reached a given thermite charge. That's because if a thermite reaction is still going on when collapse occurs at that location, you've used more thermite than needed, increasing the risk of detection as many tons more material must be brought in and placed beforehand. A 25% excess might be reasonable to allow for unexpected factors, but not more than that. Therefore, at collapse, at least 75% of the iron from thermite must already exist, either as solidified droplets (where the molten iron was able to free-fall, such as down elevator shafts), already-solidified puddles or streams, or still in molten form. Any iron that was molten when collapse reached it would be atomized into fine droplets which would then solidify extremely rapidly, before the collapse was complete, creating iron sphericles of a certain distribution of sizes. Any of these iron products would have been easy to recognize in the debris after collapse.)

----------

Finally, in the spirit of alternative theories, I have an alternative theory of my own, which I do not believe in, but which makes more sense than the usual CD theory (CD used to assure collapse in case the plane impacts alone weren't enough). That is to say, it fixes some (but not all) of the main flaws in the CD theory, while adding a smaller number of new flaws of its own.

Call it the "deadweight projectile" theory: the towers were brought down by inert (that is, non-explosive) smart bombs, of about 100 tons each, either launched ballistically or dropped from high-flying aircraft. The deadweights struck the towers dead center, penetrating and damaging the cores from the upper floors downward for 20-30 floors to initiate collapse. (If there's doubt that enough damage could be caused that way, the damage wrought on WTC7 by falling deadweight debris from the towers, with smaller and less compact masses at slower speeds, should dispel it. In fact it was the "gouge" in WTC7 that inspired this theory.)

The terminal velocity that such projectiles would reach would make them very difficult to see from the ground, especially with the smoke. The noise of the impacts, while considerable, would be less than required for explosive detonations, and would be intepreted as part of the noise of the collapse itself.

Since rocket launches are difficult to hide from snooping foreign powers, dirigibles large enough would attract attention even when flying high, and the largest artillery shells ever fired were only about 7 tons, the most likely deployment scenario for large deadweight projectiles is dropping them from 747s.

The problem of disposing of the projectile afterward is solved by making the projectile a hollow shell filled with thermite, rather than a solid mass. This would have only a small effect on the projectile's effectiveness. Its density would be less than that of a solid iron mass, but its total mass is what matters most for the job, and that's determined by the payload capacity of the deployment aircraft in any case. So, after being buried in the rubble, each deadweight can conveniently melt itself down, creating the observed hot spots.

The advantage over CD is primarily in the lowered risk. You don't have to risk getting caught rigging the towers. Also, if you rig the towers for demolition and then the planes miss the towers, you've got no good alternatives for either using or getting rid of the explosives. But if your collapse-trigger is deadweight projectiles instead, you simply don't launch them unless, and until, the airplane impacts and fires have occurred. Another risk, that a tower won't collapse even after a deadweight is used, is partly offset by the deadweight's self-destruct mechanism. If it lodges in the 80th floor and melts itself down there because the tower doesn't collapse, it's likely to iginte more fires on the floors below, possibly causing collapse that way, and whether than does or doesn't happen, the presence of the melted metal afterward is likely to be blamed on the effects of the fire. Plus, you might have contingency plans in place for dropping another one, if needed (though it would have to be right away; even high-flying aircraft would start attracting attention once all air traffic is grounded later in the morning).

(The use of such a contingency plan might have been involved in the damage and collapse of WTC7. If the gouge were due to one projectile malfunctioning and hitting WTC7 during the bombardment to collapse the North Tower -- perhaps several synchronized smaller deadweights instead of just one large one were used -- that might have necessitated another use of the weapon, arranged hours later perhaps under the partial cover of evening twilight conditions, to bring WTC7 down. However, as noted before, as the air traffic shutdown was fully in effect by then, this scenario presents severe difficulties.)

It also makes for a much smaller consipracy. It requires only the organizers, the hijackers (as the conspirators' patsies), the pilots and bombardiers, and a few technicians. The designer of the smart bomb's guidance system doesn't have to be in on it; he's told he's designing the guidance system for an ultra top secret super-bunker-buster bomb of the required size and mass. The manufacturer of the projectiles doesn't have to be in on it -- they get the same cover story of a top secret giant conventional bomb, and they make only the casings, expecting them to be filled with explosive later. The actual consiprators instead fill the casings with the right mix of inert ballast and thermite. Because there's no explosion, none of the people who helped manufacture the deadweights recognize that their work was used on 9/11.

(Keeping all the world's structural engineers silent about the airline collisions and fires not being sufficient to cause the collapses is still a problem, of course -- but no worse a problem than for explosive CD.)

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
I see three possibilities for the motivation of Greening.

1. He has had a true change of heart, wants the truth to come out, and killed his own previous collapse theory. He does not believe the AP theory, but neded to put it out there to discredit his original theory, and to point out some interesting data (iron spherules, zinc etc.) that other researchers have overlooked.

2. He is and always has been a professional disinfo artist, is busy "creating his own opposition", and will continue to float as many bogus theories as he can come up with, regardless of whose "side" they favor, just so long as it complicates the debate.

3. He actually believes his new AP theory, and wants to test reaction to it.

because satire doesn't exist, right?
 
What I find even more odd is that we were told he has wanted to come here and post for some time, then when he does he posts what he did, makes a few replies to people, then vanishes.

Very strange.

TAM:)

i think-- and i could be wrong-- that his point was to create a ******** theory. i think apollo was having fun under the justification that when truthers supported the theory, it would illustrate just how willing truthers are to accept that which has been debunked. i think apollo figured that his theories would meet reasonable criticism here, but would be accepted by truthers. apollo used language and "debate skills" that appeal to the truthers. as the posts continued, it seemed as though apollo dropped serious hints that the entire thing was a farce, and when others picked up on these suggestions, he didn't offer counter argument.

again, i could be wrong...
 
I think it's now clear that Greening is disinfo, as if it wasn't obvious before. Yes, his "spiked fireproofing" theory is not going to win many proponents, if any. He's slamming NIST, to try and capture the hearts of some truthers, in order to lead them down a dead end. It might work. It's worked pretty well for Steven Jones.

Greening's "crush-down crush-up" whopper is no more plausible than "spiked fireproofing". Nor was his "spontaneous thermite". His job is to create as many different theories as he can come up with, in order to steer as many people as possible in as many different directions as possible.

Knowing that "spiked fireproofing" was a hoax, why wouldn't you think the same of "crush-down crush-up"?
 
I think it's now clear that Greening is disinfo, as if it wasn't obvious before. Yes, his "spiked fireproofing" theory is not going to win many proponents, if any. He's slamming NIST, to try and capture the hearts of some truthers, in order to lead them down a dead end. It might work. It's worked pretty well for Steven Jones.

why do you hate satire?

Greening's "crush-down crush-up" whopper is no more plausible than "spiked fireproofing". Nor was his "spontaneous thermite".

either concede that you are talking out of your ass, or argue your case. simply making a claim means nothing to anyone. seriously. it doesn't convince anyone here, other than yourself, and i think that deep down, you know this.

His job is to create as many different theories as he can come up with, in order to steer as many people as possible in as many different directions as possible.

TS, i try to stay objective when i argue anything. i try to keep my emotions from affecting anything within my post. i think such practices will help keep the dialogue more constructive.

you aren't making things easy for me. it's difficult to muster any serious response to something so... so...

i'm speechless.

Knowing that "spiked fireproofing" was a hoax, why wouldn't you think the same of "crush-down crush-up"?

this is where you are different from other people, TS. other, normal, rational people do two things that you fail to do:

1. normal, rational folk attempt to understand the evidence and arguments being presented. normal, rational people care about the science.

2. normal, rational folk don't automatically assume nefarious intent of all who offer oppositional argument. in example, i don't assume that you are some government agent, sent here to annoy the hell out of me, because i failed to pay my taxes last year. i just assume that you are insane.
 
TS:

Well of course, now that we have, and he has, exposed his theory as a joke, he will get few who buy into it.

Seems to me, the most outlandish, outrageous theory on 9/11, in the entire truth movement, is the "Energy Beam Weapon/No-Plane" Theory from Reynolds and Wood, wouldn't you agree?

TAM:)
 
Steven Jones has a new theory

At the present time there are THREE main theories that claim to explain the collapse of WTC 1 & 2:

2. Dr. Steven Jones’ theory: The collapse events were man-made processes caused by the timed ignition of pre-planted explosives or incendiary devices.


Steven Jones announced his newest theory last week: 9/11 and Global Warming: the Chemtrail Link

911booger.blogspot.com
 
Knowing that "spiked fireproofing" was a hoax, why wouldn't you think the same of "crush-down crush-up"?



If you'd bother to actually read (and understand) some of the comments people have made, you'd understand why we accept one, and reject the other.

It's because one hypothesis is consistent with our understanding of science, and his calculations, which are easily checked, stand up to our scrutiny, while the other fails on both those counts.

That is, we're doing the same thing we do with every hypothesis - we're evaluating it on it's merits. I know you don't want to, and never will, admit that that's how we approach these issues, but your unwillingness to admit such doesn't change the fact that that is how we proceed.

Your demand that we either accept or throw out all of his hypotheses on the basis of who presented them, rather than their merits, is pretty much the essence of the ad hominem argument.
 
Greening has also exposed his "Crush-down crush-up" theory as a joke. In a private email to me, he admitted that it is wrong, but prefers to leave it published as it is, "warts and all".

The crush down crush up model cannot possibly survive scientific scrutiny, for it relies upon the assumption that the top block remains relatively intact and that no more than 20% of the mass is "shed" outside the footprint, both demonstrably false. There is no top block, it turns to dust. Worse, the model treats the core as a series of "floors" that respond individually to each impact. In reality, a falling mass would encounter "the frame", which is founded on bedrock. All of which ignores how the top block goes into free-fall in the first place, an impossibility given that steel loses strength gradually.

Even forgetting these fatal problems, crush-down crush-up cannot explain the pulverization, so Greening denies it, as do JREFs. All of which led me to my conclusion that "Frank Greening is divorced from reality". This is taking Greening's crush-down crush-up paper at face value. Actually, a scientist of Greening's caliber could not possibly have missed the errors I just pointed out, so we conclude that Greening is disinfo. This latest disinfo piece, "Spiked Fireproofing" is just further proof.
 
Greening has also exposed his "Crush-down crush-up" theory as a joke. In a private email to me, he admitted that it is wrong, but prefers to leave it published as it is, "warts and all".

The crush down crush up model cannot possibly survive scientific scrutiny, for it relies upon the assumption that the top block remains relatively intact and that no more than 20% of the mass is "shed" outside the footprint, both demonstrably false. There is no top block, it turns to dust. Worse, the model treats the core as a series of "floors" that respond individually to each impact. In reality, a falling mass would encounter "the frame", which is founded on bedrock. All of which ignores how the top block goes into free-fall in the first place, an impossibility given that steel loses strength gradually.

Even forgetting these fatal problems, crush-down crush-up cannot explain the pulverization, so Greening denies it, as do JREFs. All of which led me to my conclusion that "Frank Greening is divorced from reality". This is taking Greening's crush-down crush-up paper at face value. Actually, a scientist of Greening's caliber could not possibly have missed the errors I just pointed out, so we conclude that Greening is disinfo. This latest disinfo piece, "Spiked Fireproofing" is just further proof.
Please post your e-mail to him and his e-mail to you. I want to see just what he thinks hes wrong about.

Also, please point out the scientific paper which passed peer-review by a RESPECTED scientific journal which proves what your saying. You wouldn't want intelligent people here to think you're just making unfounded statements would you? :p
 

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