Daily show interview with David Barton

CurtC said:
I consider Mormons to be Christians, but I wouldn't say Jefferson was Christian. If you don't believe at least that Jesus was a divine being whose death paid for the sins of his followers, then I wouldn't consider you a Christian (Mormons do believe those things).
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but that your yard stick.

My point is that many christians (especially many evangelicals) deny Mormons are christian. This is quite important point because Barton is casting an extremely wide net with his argument and would include many people that christians would not want to be associated with.

If an evangelical wishes to call Jefferson a christian, they have to also accept Mormons, Branch davidians, Scientologists or anyone who self describes as christian...christian.
 
Halfcentaur said:
I don't think Jefferson was an atheist, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim he was, though I am sure somewhere someone has.
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I thought this was a rather weird thing to suggest.
Most atheists/skeptics are well aware that Jefferson was not an atheist.

I think this is a common way that Barton manages to create a strawman, by horribly exaggerating his opponents claims.
 
SkeptimusPrime said:
I thought this was a rather weird thing to suggest.
Most atheists/skeptics are well aware that Jefferson was not an atheist.

I think this is a common way that Barton manages to create a strawman, by horribly exaggerating his opponents claims.
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To allow me a little latitude, it feels like the argument in Barton's mind goes:

Skeptic: Jefferson was strongly opposed to religious influence in government.
Barton: No. He wasn't an atheist.
Skeptic: I didn't say he was an atheist. All I was saying is that he was opposed to church influence in government. He supported the religious views for the individual.
Barton: Exactly. He was christian.
Skeptic: You don't need to be christian to hold that view. Although it is clear that he really wasn't christian as he didn't believe in the divinity of christ.
Barton: That's a lie. He was a christian. he respected jesus.
Skeptic: Yes he respected Jesus, but he also rewrote the bible removing the magic from the text...
Barton: Stop trying to say that he was an atheist.
Skeptic: I didn't say that. It was clear he was deist and not an atheist.
Barton: Exactly. He didn't support the separation of church and state.
 
joobz said:
To allow me a little latitude, it feels like the argument in Barton's mind goes:

Skeptic: Jefferson was strongly opposed to religious influence in government.
Barton: No. He wasn't an atheist.
Skeptic: I didn't say he was an atheist. All I was saying is that he was opposed to church influence in government. He supported the religious views for the individual.
Barton: Exactly. He was christian.
Skeptic: You don't need to be christian to hold that view. Although it is clear that he really wasn't christian as he didn't believe in the divinity of christ.
Barton: That's a lie. He was a christian. he respected jesus.
Skeptic: Yes he respected Jesus, but he also rewrote the bible removing the magic from the text...
Barton: Stop trying to say that he was an atheist.
Skeptic: I didn't say that. It was clear he was deist and not an atheist.
Barton: Exactly. He didn't support the separation of church and state.
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Barton's blinkered ignorance made me sick. This fictional dialog seems to me to be well in sync with the impression Barton was trying to create, disingenuously. As I've written previously, Jefferson was able to distinguish personal religious opinions from govermental involvement on religious questions, and specifically held that governmental compulsion to support a ministry--even a ministry with which one agrees--is an infringment upon freedom. A quotation that memorializes this attitude appears on one wall of the Jefferson memorial in Washington DC.
 
Lowpro said:
Well, you are saying he's not a Christian, but a Christian. I mean we all know TJ was not an orthodox Christian, did not partake in most of the rites and mythologies, but that doesn't mean he didn't call himself a Christian. TJ says he's a Christian, identifies himself as a Christian, but does not associate with orthodox christianity. Does that mean he's not a Christian, or not a Christian as most people identify with?
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It means he was an astute political Christian. Let's not forget that there were religious pressures on office holders back then just as much as today.
 
SezMe said:
It means he was an astute political Christian. Let's not forget that there were religious pressures on office holders back then just as much as today.
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That may be, but did he ever identify himself as anything else? Did he ever say he wasn't a Christian? Sure, he attacks orthodox christianity and doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ but does that mean that he doesn't identify himself as Christian?

Maybe he didn't, but I also think that there just wasn't a zeitgeist option to be anything other than a Christian either.

I dunno, the more I read about Jefferson the more I think Barton in the interview was right in that TJ and the Constitution should protect people from worshipping on their own wherever they are. When Barton brings up the guy handing out Bibles and the kid being chastised and removed from the lunchroom for praying over his meal, that is wrong and un-American as TJ said:

Thomas Jefferson said:
No Provision Dearer
“No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the
rights of conscience against the enterprises of civil authority.”

--Letter to the Society of the Methodist Episcopal Church at
New London, Connecticut, February 4, 1809
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That doesn't mean a school can force a prayer or even administer one or arrange one, and we can all agree on that. And Barton agrees with that in the interview but I am not sure if he's two-faced in that outside of the interview he's trying to protect school/civil-run prayers. I don't think schools or state institutions can schedule a prayer or moment of silence, but a school may not also disallow students (read: people in general) from praying too.
 
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Jefferson qualified his Christianity by stating he was a follower of the teachings of Jesus, and if that is what you mean by Christian, he is a Christian (paraphrased).

He didn't consider Jesus divine, a miracle worker, or resurrected; he considered him a great teacher. If you agree with his definition of Christian, there is no conflict between being a Christian AND a deist...or atheist, for that matter.
 
Lowpro said:
I dunno, the more I read about Jefferson the more I think Barton in the interview was right in that TJ and the Constitution should protect people from worshipping on their own wherever they are. When Barton brings up the guy handing out Bibles and the kid being chastised and removed from the lunchroom for praying over his meal, that is wrong and un-American as TJ said:
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The guy handing out bibles, I'm not sure about that one, I'd need more details to know if he was within his rights, the kid praying over his meal I'd tend to agree that was wrong.

...but I am also unconvinced that Barton's story is true.

I'm not saying that schools never over step their bounds, but no one was able find any news story regarding this child Barton mentions.
 
Thanks for the link, Lowpro. Listen to Mike Huckabee, starting at 2:37.

I almost wish that there would be, like, a simultaneous telecast, and all Americans would be forced--forced at gunpoint, no less--to listen to every David Barton message. And, I think our country would be better for it.
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Nice guy.
 
You know I remember when that quote made waves some time ago, and while what Huckabee said was beyond the pale of stupid, I'm sure it wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

But damn was it a stupid thing to say.

And now I hope that Huckabee gets his crow served up to him and he eats it--at gunpoint no less
 
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