Critic’s “Top 15” claims by psychic detective Noreen Renier

[beren]

Was Chief Slaughter also dishonest when he decided that the old Fairbanks Morris Scale he saw through the woods near the Whitehurst Pit fit Renier's reading . ..

Personally, I doubt very much this in fact happened.

 

[Rodney]

He was wrong.

About what?

 

[GeeMack]

About what?

A scale is not a bridge. And a bridge is not a scale. He was wrong. Now perhaps if Slaughter was trying to justify the stupidity of consulting with a fortune teller, he might try to make a connection after the fact.

How do you suppose he would handle the situation? You suppose he would admit he listened to a two-bit fraud who offered a description so ambiguous it could fit every quarry, pond, and gravel pit in a hundred mile radius of Williston? Or would he maybe hunt for ways to make that vague description fit the actual location of Lewis's truck?

 

[Garrette]

When I get time (if I get time) I may draw up a sequence of events starting with Renier's reading, but from memory it appears that the sequence does not support the claim that the reading led the police to the pit. Specifically in regard to the scale, even if we grant it is reasonable to call it a bridge (and I do not actually grant this), it was seen only after the Whitehurst pit was being checked out, hence it could not have led them there.

I think (but would have to spend time I don't have at the moment to verify) that a similar circumstance surrounds the railroad (even though it wasn't a railroad).

So if they were already checking out the Whitehurst Pit before they found the track and the scale, exactly what out of Renier's reading led them there?

It certainly wasn't the number 21. What could it possibly have been?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It certainly wasn't the number 21. What could it possibly have been?

The fact that she said there would be some rocks there? I think that rocks being in a quarry is unusual enough to have led them there.

 

[GeeMack]

When I get time (if I get time) I may draw up a sequence of events starting with Renier's reading, but from memory it appears that the sequence does not support the claim that the reading led the police to the pit. Specifically in regard to the scale, even if we grant it is reasonable to call it a bridge (and I do not actually grant this), it was seen only after the Whitehurst pit was being checked out, hence it could not have led them there.

I think (but would have to spend time I don't have at the moment to verify) that a similar circumstance surrounds the railroad (even though it wasn't a railroad).

So if they were already checking out the Whitehurst Pit before they found the track and the scale, exactly what out of Renier's reading led them there?

It certainly wasn't the number 21. What could it possibly have been?

No, it wasn't. In fact Noreen Reiner admits on this page that they connected the numbers to the location after Lewis was found. I repeat this for Rodney and anyone else who might actually be gullible enough to believe this psychic detective nonsense has any connection to reality... Noreen Reiner admits that they attempted to connect her ambiguous numbers to the location after Lewis was found.

"By that afternoon Norman's truck was winched out of the pit," said Slaughter, "and there was Norman, inside the cab, mummified from the limestone and encrusted."

Several different roads led into the pit. "On one road," said Slaughter, "You would come up over a rise, and the road turned right. If you were on the next level up, the road comes over a rise and it just goes off a shear drop. We're not sure how or why Norman ended up in the pit. But I think he probably got confused."

"Now Hewitt and I start working on the numbers. We have to complete the puzzle. Lewis's home was exactly 2.1 miles from the pit. The entrance to the mine is located on US 41, but if you look at the map carefully, you'll see it's also SR 45. Now we were left with the number 22 and couldn't do anything with it. That was until we had Norman's watch cleaned up before giving it back to his brother. It had stopped on the 22nd of the month."

"Now...," after the body was found, "... Hewitt and I start working on the numbers." The numbers were crap, made up out of thin air (or maybe guesses based on common road numbers in the area). Nothing about the numbers led the police to finding Lewis and his truck. And as Garrette mentioned above, they were already looking at the Whitehurst quarry, or nobody would have (allegedly) noted the landmarks Reiner (supposedly) ambiguously mentioned.

It all looks like a couple of dumb cops covering their asses for doing some shoddy police work. By passing the credit for the eventual solution to Reiner, they were able to deflect the blame from themselves. And apparently there are actually people who were duped by their con.

That's how "psychic" detectives work. They're running a scam, and some of them will undoubtedly continue to con people as long as they can put their hooks into a handful of gullible cops and a few of the faithful in the general public.

 

[Garrette]

Sequence of Events (or close to it)

Late June: Hewitt calls Renier

17 July: Renier performs reading

• A lot of rocks
• Hardness higher up
• Hazardous and dangerous
• RR track goes through
• Quadrant from 9 to 12 (starting from Lewis' house)
• 45 miles or 4.5 miles
• Go left
• 45 degrees
• "Looking for H and 45"
• Still in the vehicle
• "Not too far from an old bridge. Either it's been decayed or it's broken or it's not used...It's called the old bridge or is an old bridge."
• "One point, or one one point two one."
• "I see two-two-I."
• "A very strong H, 'Ha'-sounding or an H in it."
• 221...22..21...2I...H...EML...E...11.2
• Gestures to travel right (from Lewis' house) then veer left

Immediately after the reading, the eastern pit becomes the "prime target" of police investigation (this according to an anonymous source per Posner).

23 July: Hewitt files a report:
"...the Whitehurst pits are an obvious first impression...being the closest and the most accessible from the Lewis residence." [Hewitt was mistaken; the eastern pit was far closer and had also been accessible at the time Lewis disappeared.]

Police searched around several bodies of water

17 August: Hewitt finds the abandoned tracks leading to the shoulder of the access road to the Whitehurst pit

27 September: Hewitt requests Navy divers search the Whitehurst pit (they are not available yet)

3 April: Navy Divers search the Whitehurst pit and find Lewis' remains in his truck. Lewis' watch is found to show the number 22 on its date scale.

Unknown date after 3 April: Hewitt finds scale

Much later: Slaughter claims Hewitt found scale before calling for Navy divers

-----------

That's the best I can make of the sequence given the limited time I have to devote to it. Apologies for anything left out.

I think I could spend a long time dissecting this to show how the claim it presents any evidence for psychic ability is hollow, but I will stick with two points.

Point 1: Let's assume everything in favor of the claim. The tracks really are RR tracks. The scale really does count as the bridge, and Hewitt found it before calling the Navy divers. The anonymous report to Posner about focusing on the eastern pit is wrong.

Hewitt's note of 23 July says the Whitehurst pit was "an obvious first impression." How can this possibly be? They hadn't yet found the tracks or the scale. None of the numbers matched. The pit wasn't in the quadrant indicated by Renier. The pit wasn't in either of the two directions indicated by Renier. Other pits were much closer to still working tracks. Other pits fit the directions better. The eastern pit fit the numbers better.

So what led them to the Whitehurst pit? Two possibilities come to my mind, but I would rather have Rodney's thoughts first.


Point 2: Which of the many pits would not have been considered a hit if Lewis had been found there? If Lewis had been found in the eastern pit, would Renier have called it a hit? Closer to home, would you, Rodney, have called it a hit?

 

[Rodney]

Unknown date after 3 April: Hewitt finds scale

Much later: Slaughter claims Hewitt found scale before calling for Navy divers.

Where are you getting this information from?

First, it wasn't Detective Brian Hewitt, but Williston Chief of Police Olin Slaughter, who says that he observed the scale: "So I'm up there at the pit with Brian after this, wondering where we go next, and I happen to look just right through the woods and see an old Fairbanks Morris Scale. It was a wooden truck scale that could be confused for a bridge." See http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/psychic-detectives

Second, an April 19, 1996 (16 days after Norman Lewis' truck and remains were recovered on April 3) news report about the case on WTVT-TV 13 in Tampa shows the truck scale; see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk6Ae64Mntg. Are you seriously suggesting that Slaughter was unaware of the truck scale until "after 3 April"?

Hewitt's note of 23 July says the Whitehurst pit was "an obvious first impression." How can this possibly be? They hadn't yet found the tracks or the scale. None of the numbers matched. The pit wasn't in the quadrant indicated by Renier. The pit wasn't in either of the two directions indicated by Renier. Other pits were much closer to still working tracks. Other pits fit the directions better. The eastern pit fit the numbers better.

So what led them to the Whitehurst pit? Two possibilities come to my mind, but I would rather have Rodney's thoughts first.

The thing that you, Gary Posner, and others here do not seem to grasp is that only those present at Renier's July 17, 1995 reading have the full picture of what led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst pit. In his article, Posner concedes this at two points: "Hewitt finally responded by delivering what he termed "a copy of the field audio tape [which] contains portions of the session with Noreen Renier . . . Another question relates to an undated police report, filed by Hewitt, which does not appear to comport with Renier's reading, at least as excerpted on the tapes." (emphasis added) See http://www.gpposner.com/Williston.html

So, none of here can view the full reading of July 17, 1995, but it appears that something Renier said led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst Pit. What is particularly interesting about this is that it was not the closest pit to Lewis' home, as Posner notes: "Although the 'eastern' pit was fenced off by this time, it had been easily accessible when Lewis disappeared, and it is half as far from Lewis' home as is Whitehurst." Further, according to Posner, police did not believe that there was a railroad track near Whitehurst. So, it seems that there was a split among the Williston police, with some believing that the eastern pit should be the primary focus of the investigation, but with Hewitt favoring the Whitehurst pit. When Hewitt located the buried railroad tracks near Whitehurst, that bolstered Slaughter's confidence that Whitehurst was the correct location, but it was not until Slaughter observed the old truck scale that he felt confident enough to ask Hewitt to write a letter requesting the assistance of Navy divers.

Point 2: Which of the many pits would not have been considered a hit if Lewis had been found there? If Lewis had been found in the eastern pit, would Renier have called it a hit? Closer to home, would you, Rodney, have called it a hit?

If that had been the only pit searched, yes. But that's the inconvenient fact that you have to deal with: After Renier's reading and the verification of the landmarks that Renier provided, Williston police zeroed in on the correct location.

 

[Garrette]

Where are you getting this information from?

Primarily from Posner's site. If I have made errors in making my list, attribute it to my haste, and accept my apologies. Regardless if it was Hewitt or Slaughter, however, it changes nothing.

First, it wasn't Detective Brian Hewitt, but Williston Chief of Police Olin Slaughter, who says that he observed the scale: "So I'm up there at the pit with Brian after this, wondering where we go next, and I happen to look just right through the woods and see an old Fairbanks Morris Scale. It was a wooden truck scale that could be confused for a bridge." See http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/psychic-detectives

I will gladly admit that he found the scale before the divers found Lewis. But he was already at the pit and did not know it was there. My point remains: What led him to the pit? Obviously not the scale.
Obviously not the track. Obviously not the numbers.

The thing that you, Gary Posner, and others here do not seem to grasp is that only those present at Renier's July 17, 1995 reading have the full picture of what led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst pit. In his article, Posner concedes this at two points: "Hewitt finally responded by delivering what he termed "a copy of the field audio tape [which] contains portions of the session with Noreen Renier . . . Another question relates to an undated police report, filed by Hewitt, which does not appear to comport with Renier's reading, at least as excerpted on the tapes." (emphasis added) See http://www.gpposner.com/Williston.html

The thing that you don't seem to grasp (or rather, to consciously ignore) is that we don't have the rest of the reading, though it could have been released.

We have what we have, and what we have clearly does not point to the Whitehurst pit. And nothing in what we have that can conceivably be stretched to refer to the Whitehurst pit was not discovered until the police were already searching at the Whitehurst pit.

So the only evidence that points to Renier's reading leading them to the Whitehurst pit is, as you so readily admit, evidence that we do not have.

So, none of here can view the full reading of July 17, 1995, but it appears that something Renier said led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst Pit.

No, it does not. It very decidedly does not.

If something Renier said led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst pit, then why did not Hewitt or Slaughter say what it is instead of listing things that quite clearly did not lead them to the pit.

Frankly, every single alternate explanation listed in this thread is more plausible than the one you put forth here.

What is particularly interesting about this is that it was not the closest pit to Lewis' home, as Posner notes: "Although the 'eastern' pit was fenced off by this time, it had been easily accessible when Lewis disappeared, and it is half as far from Lewis' home as is Whitehurst." Further, according to Posner, police did not believe that there was a railroad track near Whitehurst. So, it seems that there was a split among the Williston police, with some believing that the eastern pit should be the primary focus of the investigation, but with Hewitt favoring the Whitehurst pit.

Ah. So Renier's reading did not clearly point to Whitehurst. Thank you.

When Hewitt located the buried railroad tracks near Whitehurst,

Yes. After he was already there. What got him to look there. Nothing, absolutely nothing, in Renier's reading has been shown to have actually led Hewitt there. The railroad track, like the scale, is a retrofit.

that bolstered Slaughter's confidence that Whitehurst was the correct location,

Confidence gained from where? Slaughter controlled the release of the reports and the edited video. If there is convincing evidence that actually led him to think it was Whitehurst then why did he only mention things that they did not know about until they searched at Whitehurst?

but it was not until Slaughter observed the old truck scale that he felt confident enough to ask Hewitt to write a letter requesting the assistance of Navy divers.

What in Renier's reading led him to Whitehurst in the first place?

If that had been the only pit searched, yes.

So you admit that the clues fit the eastern pit at least as well as they fit Whitehurst. That's progress.

But that's the inconvenient fact that you have to deal with: After Renier's reading and the verification of the landmarks that Renier provided, Williston police zeroed in on the correct location.

1. Only if you view the accounts assuming everything favorable to Renier.

2. They did not zero in on the location based on anything we know about the reading, and neither Hewitt nor Slaughter tells us what in the reading led them there.

You are grasping at phantom straws.

 

[Resume]

If that had been the only pit searched, yes. But that's the inconvenient fact that you have to deal with: After Renier's reading and the verification of the landmarks that Renier provided, Williston police zeroed in on the correct location.

If by landmarks you mean vague, retrofitted, geographical generalizations.

 

[Garrette]

To make it more clear, Rodney:

Hewitt's report on 23 July says the Whitehurst pit was an "obvious first impression."

But the track and the scale were found well after that. The number 21 was (wrongly) fitted to the distance after the body was found.

What made the Whitehurst pit an obvious first impression?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It's probably worth noting that if the recordings made and released by Renier and the police are incomplete, then the stuff that's most likely to have been edited out is the stuff that's clearly worthless. This is true whether there's deception involved or not.

Here's the question - if the stuff that's been edited out wasn't worthless, but instead was crucial, then why didn't the police keep it on the edited tape which they claim they edited down in order to be used as notes in the field? Why didn't Renier include it in the reconstruction for television? Why would the police and Renier leave out key information and not only edit it out of the evidence, but also steadfastly refuse to mention it in interviews?

No, if anything, what the recordings will show is a version of the reading which has been presented in the best possible light, omitting more blatantly incorrect pieces of information, and perhaps even tweaking the information which is there to make it a better fit.

 

[Garrette]

Yup.

It boils down to this: the absolute best case for establishing any value in Renier's reading is either

(a) that the evidence has been kept hidden by everyone who claims Renier's reading added value, or

(b) that the police searched at Whitehurst based on something besides Renier's reading and retrofitted a few items from Renier's laundry list--a laundry list which could also have covered the eastern pit or any of a number of others

 

[GeeMack]

Where are you getting this information from?

First, it wasn't Detective Brian Hewitt, but Williston Chief of Police Olin Slaughter, who says that he observed the scale: "So I'm up there at the pit with Brian after this, wondering where we go next, and I happen to look just right through the woods and see an old Fairbanks Morris Scale. It was a wooden truck scale that could be confused for a bridge." See http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/psychic-detectives

So Slaughter had reason to be investigating the Whitehurst quarry before he considered Renier's "psychic" nonsense.

Second, an April 19, 1996 (16 days after Norman Lewis' truck and remains were recovered on April 3) news report about the case on WTVT-TV 13 in Tampa shows the truck scale; see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk6Ae64Mntg. Are you seriously suggesting that Slaughter was unaware of the truck scale until "after 3 April"?

So Slaughter was unaware of the truck scale until after he saw it. He didn't follow some clue about a scale in Renier's "psychic" reading that took him to it or to the Whitehurst pit. Oh, a scale is not a bridge, and a bridge is not a scale.

The thing that you, Gary Posner, and others here do not seem to grasp is that only those present at Renier's July 17, 1995 reading have the full picture of what led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst pit. In his article, Posner concedes this at two points: "Hewitt finally responded by delivering what he termed "a copy of the field audio tape [which] contains portions of the session with Noreen Renier . . . Another question relates to an undated police report, filed by Hewitt, which does not appear to comport with Renier's reading, at least as excerpted on the tapes." (emphasis added) See http://www.gpposner.com/Williston.html

The thing that you, and so many other believers in the supernatural do not seem to grasp is that confirmation bias and fitting ambiguous comments to the situation after the fact do not, in any way, support the cockamamie notion that Noreen Renier, or anyone else for that matter, is actually a psychic detective. It's all crap, no matter how long and how deep the post hoc analysis goes. Nobody has ever been able to demonstrate objectively that psychic powers are real. Period.

So, none of here can view the full reading of July 17, 1995, but it appears that something Renier said led Hewitt to focus on the Whitehurst Pit. What is particularly interesting about this is that it was not the closest pit to Lewis' home, as Posner notes: "Although the 'eastern' pit was fenced off by this time, it had been easily accessible when Lewis disappeared, and it is half as far from Lewis' home as is Whitehurst."

So? They didn't really know if Lewis was in the pit on the east side of town or if he had run off to New Mexico with his lover. But he had threatened to kill himself by driving into a quarry, and there are dozens of lakes, gravel pits, and such within a half hour's drive of Williston. The confirmation bias and post hoc fitting of Renier's ambiguous comments to the facts known after Lewis was found is noted.

But as a matter of interest, apparently they considered and investigated around 30 quarries, gravel pits, and ponds. How many of them had vehicle access to parts that were deep enough to hide a truck? How many of them had scuffs or scrapes along the edge that could have been made by the underside of a truck?

Further, according to Posner, police did not believe that there was a railroad track near Whitehurst.

Then they should have looked at a map, or consulted with someone who was a little bit familiar with the town of Williston. It is interesting that on a police force of over a dozen people, nobody had the skills, abilities, or brains to check a simple map and see that a railroad track runs within a few hundred feet of the pit to the east of Lewis's home and the Whitehurst pit. Idiot cops. No wonder it took them so long to find Lewis.

So, it seems that there was a split among the Williston police, with some believing that the eastern pit should be the primary focus of the investigation, but with Hewitt favoring the Whitehurst pit. When Hewitt located the buried railroad tracks near Whitehurst, that bolstered Slaughter's confidence that Whitehurst was the correct location, but it was not until Slaughter observed the old truck scale that he felt confident enough to ask Hewitt to write a letter requesting the assistance of Navy divers.

So they were looking at the Whitehurst gravel pit before they associated a railroad track with the area, not because Renier mentioned it in her bogus "psychic" reading. Again, the post hoc rationalization and complete lack of any objectivity is noted.

If that had been the only pit searched, yes. But that's the inconvenient fact that you have to deal with: After Renier's reading and the verification of the landmarks that Renier provided, Williston police zeroed in on the correct location.

After many months of investigating the available access to various quarries and gravel pits, and after considering the places where a pickup truck could be driven off the edges of those pits into deep enough water to hide it from view, they decided to send the divers into a particular part of the Whitehurst pit. Nobody suggested that a psychic detective's description matched a certain place at that gravel pit and decided to send some divers there to look for Lewis.

The Whitehurst pit covers an area about a half mile long and a quarter mile wide, and it has a shoreline that is irregular enough that it looks to be several miles long. Somebody, and it sure as hell wasn't scam artist Noreen Renier, decided to do an underwater search of a particular part of the pit. It could be it was the Navy divers who had the intelligence to rationally and objectively consider potential locations. After all, nobody in the Williston police department even knew how to spot railroad tracks on a map or knew that railroad tracks ran alongside the entire tiny town, a town only a couple miles long from end to end.

 

[Resume]

Given the "evidence," the bottom line here is that Renier sucks as a psychic detective, and psychic detectives suck at detecting.

 

[Rodney]

To make it more clear, Rodney:

Hewitt's report on 23 July says the Whitehurst pit was an "obvious first impression."

But the track and the scale were found well after that. The number 21 was (wrongly) fitted to the distance after the body was found.

What made the Whitehurst pit an obvious first impression?

As Posner acknowledges, Renier mentioned the number "45" in her reading, and both the Whitehurst and eastern pits are located adjacent to Florida State Route 45. So, that clue may have initially narrowed the search to those two pits. The fact that there were known to be railroad tracks near the eastern pit, but not near the Whitehurst pit, apparently led at least some Williston police to believe that the eastern pit was the one referenced by Renier. However, for unknown reasons, Hewitt focused more on the Whitehurst pit. My best guess (again, we don't have the complete audio/video record of Renier's reading) is that she made some reference that Hewitt picked up on. What is your explanation for Hewitt focusing more on the Whitehurst Pit?

 

[GeeMack]

As Posner acknowledges, Renier mentioned the number "45" in her reading, and both the Whitehurst and eastern pits are located adjacent to Florida State Route 45. So, that clue may have initially narrowed the search to those two pits. The fact that there were known to be railroad tracks near the eastern pit, but not near the Whitehurst pit, apparently led at least some Williston police to believe that the eastern pit was the one referenced by Renier.

The number "45" was fit to the location after Lewis was found. After. That means it wasn't used to sway the choice of search locations one little bit.

And any buffoon who can read a map can see that the railroad track near the eastern pit is also near the Whitehurst pit. Nearer the Whitehurst pit in fact. Do you really think the Williston police were stupid? Incompetent? Can't read a simple map? Have you not explored these possibilities yourself before making these comments which are, incidentally, just plain wrong?

However, for unknown reasons, Hewitt focused more on the Whitehurst pit. My best guess (again, we don't have the complete audio/video record of Renier's reading) is that she made some reference that Hewitt picked up on. What is your explanation for Hewitt focusing more on the Whitehurst Pit?

The Whitehurst pit had many points of access for a vehicle? The Whitehurst pit had places where the vehicle access was also deep enough to completely submerge a pickup truck? These things have been mentioned before right here in this thread. Is there some particular reason that you ignore the comments that offer plausible, real life explanations in favor of crediting supernatural powers?

 

[Sherlock]

It remains unclear as to whether present investigators at the Williston Police department continue to work with paranormal investigators and now wish to clarify their involvement. I have let them know this thread exists. Their contact is info@willistonpolice.org Extensive charades by Renier are outlined in 12 posted segments at http://www.gpinquirygroup.com/gpinquirygroup/IndepthRenier.html

The conclusion in March 2011 by a federal judge that Renier misled his court and is not a credible witness adds to her lack of performance.

She is simply not credible in her books, nor her public presentations, her initial bankruptcy filings, or her paranormal claims. Supporters of her claims are simply further damaging their own credibility in attempting to support her claims. They offer thin air and delusions to support her cause.

 

[Garrette]

As Posner acknowledges, Renier mentioned the number "45" in her reading, and both the Whitehurst and eastern pits are located adjacent to Florida State Route 45. So, that clue may have initially narrowed the search to those two pits. The fact that there were known to be railroad tracks near the eastern pit, but not near the Whitehurst pit, apparently led at least some Williston police to believe that the eastern pit was the one referenced by Renier.

So we are agreed that none of the known information presented by Renier makes the Whitehurst pit "an obvious first impression."

However, for unknown reasons, Hewitt focused more on the Whitehurst pit.

Yes. Unknown reasons. Not "because what Renier said."

And that is still assuming that we view the case in the best possible light for Renier.

My best guess (again, we don't have the complete audio/video record of Renier's reading) is that she made some reference that Hewitt picked up on.

So you admit that your support of Renier is a guess. Finally.

I suggest you need practice if that truly is your best guess.

What is your explanation for Hewitt focusing more on the Whitehurst Pit?

Whether I have an explanation or not is entirely irrelevant to the validity of the claim regarding Renier. Regardless, you have been presented more than once more than one alternate explanation, each of which is more plausible than yours.

Someone earlier in the thread that your attempts to shift burden of proof will not go unchallenged. I'm challenging it here. I, in fact, do have plausible speculation regarding what happened, but as they are irrelevant to the claim itself, I will forego wasting time listing them.

 

[Rodney]

I, in fact, do have plausible speculation regarding what happened, but as they are irrelevant to the claim itself, I will forego wasting time listing them.

That's as convincing as the other explanations I've read here as to how this case was solved.