Critic’s “Top 15” claims by psychic detective Noreen Renier

[Rodney]

None of that counters the statements that I made. Posner did not "assert that Norman Lewis committed suicide",

Okay, I'll concede that point. What Posner actually said was: "Lewis had threatened to commit suicide in a 'river' or a 'rock pit'."

and Reiner didn't provide any evidence the police weren't already in possession of.

On the contrary, according to Williston Police Chief Slaughter, Renier provided the critical information that Slaughter and Detective Hewitt used to locate Lewis' body:

"Renier slipped into a trance with Hewitt present, recording what she said on tape. 'As I held Lewis's shoe,' said Renier, 'I began seeing a series of images flashing through my mind. I could see Lewis falling off of a cliff; encapsulated inside his truck and surrounded by vegetation; that a pile of bricks, a bridge and an old railroad bed were nearby. And then I saw a series of numbers. First came 45, which I knew was connected to a road, then 21 and later the number 22. But the last two sets of numbers had no meaning to me.' Renier then drew a map on plain notebook paper, penciling in the location of Lewis' home, with a line leading away from it, in the direction Lewis could be found. Renier had never been to Williston before.

"Hewitt returned to Williston. Over the next couple of months, he sorted through the clues, driving the dirt roads around Williston, looking for the landmarks Renier had provided.

"'I will admit,' said Slaughter, 'that after a couple of months, I was about ready to call it quits. Even though we were a small department, with 16 full time officers, we had other cases to work. But Brian really believed that Renier's clues would bear out, so I told him, 'I'll stick with you.'

"Several months passed, and Hewitt was still on the hunt for Norman Lewis. By now, though, Hewitt had zeroed in on an old phosphate pit with cliffs, a couple of miles from Lewis's home. He found a steel rail in a heavily wooded area near the pit, but no railroad bed. The pit was located in the general direction from Lewis's house that Renier's hand-drawn map had shown.

"'One day, Brian's roaming around up there in the woods,' said Slaughter, 'and he finds a pile of red bricks. He went back to the rail he discovered earlier, started digging and found an old railroad bed underneath it. I called Levy County Sheriff's Department divers to come over and work the pit. But they came up empty. The pit had water in it 30 to 40 feet deep and was covered in vegetation.

"'So I'm up there at the pit with Brian after this, wondering where we go next, and I happen to look just right through the woods and see an old Fairbanks Morris Scale. It was a wooden truck scale that could be confused for a bridge.'

"Slaughter's confidence grew, and he got some Navy demolition divers to dive the pit on their off time. On their second day, they got a hit while using a magnetometer.

"'By that afternoon Norman's truck was winched out of the pit,' said Slaughter, 'and there was Norman, inside the cab, mummified from the limestone and encrusted'." See http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/psychic-detectives

How reliable a witness the handyman was or was not is entirely irrelevant to either of those statements.

Yes it is, because its unclear that Lewis committed suicide or that the police put any stock in the handyman's belated and contradictory statement. However, in Posner's fantasy world, the handyman's statement was a "smoking gun" that somehow led the police to search the pit where Lewis' body was found.

 

[Rodney]

The best you can come up with your psychics is that they gave statements which can be retrofitted.

So, in the Williston case, what's your best guess as to how the police came to search the pit where Lewis' body was found?

 

[Loss Leader]

Any skeptic would be fine.

Why on earth would a person who doesn't believe in paranormal powers inject himself into a missing persons investigation?

"Hi, I don't believe I'll be of any help but I see a brick building, the number 27 and a kiwi."

"The bird or the fruit?"

"Either one."

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Any skeptic would be fine.


My point is that police generally do a good job of exploring all realistic possibilities, so it is unusual for assistance to be provided by someone who does not have inside knowledge regarding the case.

The link to the 20/20 episode I gave in Post #13 of this thread is an excellent example of this not being true. The police only have finite resources.

 

[Sherlock]

Loss Leader: Kiwi fruit or bird? Neither. Shoe polish.

One other point. Back in 1989 Renier admitted to a reporter that she had previously said that a missing person was dead. But then the young woman was found alive. Renier admitted this while talking to a Florida Sun Sentinal reporter during another case --- missing student Tiffany Sessions. In the Sessions case Renier was far more optimistic claiming she had "good vibes" about it. Renier said she sensed psychic energy coming off a toothbrush of Tiffany's provided by Tiffany's.

Yet 20 years later clearly the toothbrush and Renier's "good vibes" must have been "hocus pocus bogus" since the case of Tiffany Sessions remains unsolved. Still that's better than saying what she said about the other missing girl being dead before she turned up alive.

You see folks --- Noreen Renier is often the first to be wrong even years before Sylvia Browne.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Okay, I'll concede that point. What Posner actually said was: "Lewis had threatened to commit suicide in a 'river' or a 'rock pit'."

Yup. Which, as far as the police were already aware when Reiner was contacted, was true.

On the contrary, according to Williston Police Chief Slaughter, Renier provided the critical information that Slaughter and Detective Hewitt used to locate Lewis' body:

"Renier slipped into a trance with Hewitt present, recording what she said on tape. 'As I held Lewis's shoe,' said Renier, 'I began seeing a series of images flashing through my mind. I could see Lewis falling off of a cliff; encapsulated inside his truck and surrounded by vegetation; that a pile of bricks, a bridge and an old railroad bed were nearby. And then I saw a series of numbers. First came 45, which I knew was connected to a road, then 21 and later the number 22. But the last two sets of numbers had no meaning to me.' Renier then drew a map on plain notebook paper, penciling in the location of Lewis' home, with a line leading away from it, in the direction Lewis could be found. Renier had never been to Williston before.

This is discredited by the audio and video recordings of Renier.

"Hewitt returned to Williston. Over the next couple of months, he sorted through the clues, driving the dirt roads around Williston, looking for the landmarks Renier had provided.

"'I will admit,' said Slaughter, 'that after a couple of months, I was about ready to call it quits. Even though we were a small department, with 16 full time officers, we had other cases to work. But Brian really believed that Renier's clues would bear out, so I told him, 'I'll stick with you.'

"Several months passed, and Hewitt was still on the hunt for Norman Lewis. By now, though, Hewitt had zeroed in on an old phosphate pit with cliffs, a couple of miles from Lewis's home. He found a steel rail in a heavily wooded area near the pit, but no railroad bed. The pit was located in the general direction from Lewis's house that Renier's hand-drawn map had shown.

"'One day, Brian's roaming around up there in the woods,' said Slaughter, 'and he finds a pile of red bricks. He went back to the rail he discovered earlier, started digging and found an old railroad bed underneath it. I called Levy County Sheriff's Department divers to come over and work the pit. But they came up empty. The pit had water in it 30 to 40 feet deep and was covered in vegetation.

"'So I'm up there at the pit with Brian after this, wondering where we go next, and I happen to look just right through the woods and see an old Fairbanks Morris Scale. It was a wooden truck scale that could be confused for a bridge.'

"Slaughter's confidence grew, and he got some Navy demolition divers to dive the pit on their off time. On their second day, they got a hit while using a magnetometer.

"'By that afternoon Norman's truck was winched out of the pit,' said Slaughter, 'and there was Norman, inside the cab, mummified from the limestone and encrusted'." See http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/psychic-detectives

So, as I said, she didn't provide any information they weren't already in possession of, but gave them the impetus to spend the time and money they wouldn't otherwise have spent.

However, in Posner's fantasy world, the handyman's statement was a "smoking gun" that somehow led the police to search the pit where Lewis' body was found.

Is it always going to be your tactic in this thread to pretend the article claims things is doesn't, or would you care to start debating honestly at some point?

 

[Garrette]

So, in the Williston case, what's your best guess as to how the police came to search the pit where Lewis' body was found?

My best guess is irrelevant. If you claim that Renier found the body with psychic means then please demonstrate it.

 

[Rodney]

Yup. Which, as far as the police were already aware when Reiner was contacted, was true.

No, the police were aware only that a handyman claimed in a contradictory account more than a year after Lewis' disappearance "that [Lewis] had told him that if [Lewis] were not able to take care of himself because of illness, he would find a river or pit rather than the [retired] sailors home." So, for Posner to flatly assert that "Lewis had threatened to commit suicide in a 'river' or a 'rock pit'" is a big stretch.

So, as I said, she didn't provide any information they weren't already in possession of, but gave them the impetus to spend the time and money they wouldn't otherwise have spent.

Why do you suppose the Williston Police Chief disagrees with you?

Is it always going to be your tactic in this thread to pretend the article claims things is doesn't, or would you care to start debating honestly at some point?

I am debating honestly. I inadvertently overstated Posner's assertion that "Lewis had threatened to commit suicide" when I stated that Posner claimed "that Norman Lewis committed suicide", but, in fact, we don't know whether Lewis either threatened to commit suicide or did commit suicide. Further, even if the police took seriously the notion that Lewis was suicidal, the document referencing the handyman's account provided no clue as to where Lewis' body might be. So, for Posner to refer to that document as a "smoking gun" is more than a big stretch -- it's absurd.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

No, the police were aware only that a handyman claimed in a contradictory account more than a year after Lewis' disappearance "that [Lewis] had told him that if [Lewis] were not able to take care of himself because of illness, he would find a river or pit rather than the [retired] sailors home." So, for Posner to flatly assert that "Lewis had threatened to commit suicide in a 'river' or a 'rock pit'" is a big stretch.

This doesn't contradict the point I made.

Why do you suppose the Williston Police Chief disagrees with you?

I have no idea. But, given that he makes claims which contradict the audio and video recordings of what Renier actually said, I don't think he's the most reliable source in this particular instance.

Further, even if the police took seriously the notion that Lewis was suicidal, the document referencing the handyman's account provided no clue as to where Lewis' body might be.

Nobody claimed it did. You pretending that Posner did is you not debating honestly.

If you can't argue the actual facts, then don't just make up a straw man to rail against instead.

 

[Rodney]

Nobody claimed it did. You pretending that Posner did is you not debating honestly.

So why did Posner refer to this document as a "smoking gun" if it provided no clue as to where Lewis' body might be? Again, this is what Posner states regarding Investigator Hewitt's report:

"In his two-page May 12/June 15 report (I have corrected a few spelling errors), Hewitt notes that a

"handyman . . . had recently told [a client] that [Lewis] had told him that if [Lewis] were not able to take care of himself because of illness, he would find a river or pit rather than the [retired] sailors home. . . . Four days before his disappearance, [Lewis] told [the handyman] that if his health were failing, he would never be cared for by relatives or submit to the sailors home, that there were too many pits and canals. . . . [The handyman later] arrived at the police station . . . and he related [to Hewitt] the last conversation he had with Norman Lewis . . . indicating it [actually] took place approx. three weeks before his disappearance. He stated Norman seemed agitated and dissatisfied with . . . his life [including having] problems at the house with his girlfriend, relating she did not make him feel needed. . . . Told [handyman] not to get old, and made some reference to knowing every rock pit in the county. . .

"This 'smoking gun' document had been previously unknown to me and to the A&E producer. But it was now apparent that as a result of his failing health and other personal problems (an early newspaper article had also described him as 'despondent' over financial matters), Lewis had threatened to commit suicide in a 'river' or a 'rock pit.' Further, word of this had begun to spread through his tiny community and had become known to the police two months prior to their session with Renier. Might Renier have actually learned of this, in advance, from the police?"

 

[Sherlock]

You obviously did not take my remarks about her close relationship and her move to the same small town seriously. Perhaps Rodney you should call for first-person verification if still wondering how she might have come to know.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

So why did Posner refer to this document as a "smoking gun" if it provided no clue as to where Lewis' body might be?

Utterly irrelevant. The point remains that he did not claim that the handyman's testimony led the police to the location of the body, as you claimed.

Again, argue the facts, don't make up your own and argue against them instead.

 

[Rodney]

You obviously did not take my remarks about her close relationship and her move to the same small town seriously. Perhaps Rodney you should call for first-person verification if still wondering how she might have come to know.

Come to know what, exactly? By the time Noreen Renier became involved in the case, 16 months after the elderly Norman Lewis' disappearance, it was a virtual certainty that Lewis was no longer alive. So, the only questions were: (1) How did he die?; and (2) Where were his remains? The "smoking gun" document that Gary Posner refers to would bear on these questions, if the handyman's account were deemed credible, but would still not tell police where to look for Lewis' remains. However, the handyman's credibility is impugned by the facts that: (1) he did not come forward with his account for more than a year after Lewis disappeared, and (2) he changed the timing of his alleged conversation with Lewis from "four days" before Lewis' disappearance to "approx. three weeks" before Lewis' disappearance. So, I would guess that Investigator Hewitt treated this "lead' the same way he treated other uncorroborated information; i.e., it was of limited or no value. Did Hewitt share the contents of the document with Renier? Let's suppose that the answer is yes. What good did it do her?

 

[Rodney]

Utterly irrelevant. The point remains that he did not claim that the handyman's testimony led the police to the location of the body, as you claimed.

Again, argue the facts, don't make up your own and argue against them instead.

I'm very happy to argue the facts, since they do not support Posner's creative version of the case. And I still would like you to answer why Posner described the report regarding the handyman's account as a "smoking gun" if it was of no assistance to the police.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm very happy to argue the facts, since they do not support Posner's creative version of the case.

Good, please do so in future.

[/quote]And I still would like you to answer why Posner described the report regarding the handyman's account as a "smoking gun" if it was of no assistance to the police.[/QUOTE]

You'd have to ask him. I, unlike some people, don't claim to be psychic.

 

[Rodney]

Good, please do so in future.

And I still would like you to answer why Posner described the report regarding the handyman's account as a "smoking gun" if it was of no assistance to the police.[/QUOTE]

You'd have to ask him. I, unlike some people, don't claim to be psychic.

The point I'm making is that Posner does not set forth a credible argument as to how the case was solved. His use of the term "smoking gun" to describe the May/June 1995 report compiled by Investigator Hewitt regarding the handyman's account of his last conversation with Lewis strongly suggests that Posner believes that this report somehow played a critical role in solving the case. However, you seem to be conceding that the report was of limited or no value in solving the case. So, why do you regard Posner's argument as credible?

 

[Resume]

Okay, so this Noreen Renier person apparently got lucky on one occasion. Has she ever, I don't know, found someone who was alive? Solved a missing persons case? Been useful?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

And I still would like you to answer why Posner described the report regarding the handyman's account as a "smoking gun" if it was of no assistance to the police.

I'm still not psychic.

However, you seem to be conceding that the report was of limited or no value in solving the case. So, why do you regard Posner's argument as credible?

As was said up above, it's wise not to just take anybody's word for it but to instead look at the evidence and see where it leads. And, as has also already been said, the evidence clearly shows that Renier provided no information to the police that they were not already in possession of. Furthermore, it's clear that most, if not all, of what she did say to the police was either inaccurate, irrelevant or retrofitted to fit after the fact.

So you can get hung up on the words "smoking gun" all you like. It doesn't change the facts one iota. Given that, I couldn't care less about it.

 

[Rodney]

Okay, so this Noreen Renier person apparently got lucky on one occasion.

Aha, a person here willing to accept reality.

the evidence clearly shows that Renier provided no information to the police that they were not already in possession of.

And another who is not.

Has she ever, I don't know, found someone who was alive?

Not to my knowledge.

Solved a missing persons case? Been useful?

"Solved" may be a bit strong, but the case under discussion is one where the police give her significant credit for her assistance. And there are other cases, as well, where law enforcement officials have been impressed. See http://noreenrenier.com/testimonials.htm

 

[tuoni]

Aha, a person here willing to accept reality.

I think you may have been missing an important word in that sentence... I'll give you a hint, it starts with 'a' and ends in "pparently".

Edit: Not to mention the "on one occasion", of course.