Criticizing donations

[Bruce]

I hate it. I detest it. It makes me absolutely sick. It's none of your's or anyone else's damn business how much someone donates to a cause. Cripes. You liberals can whine all day about America turning into Jesusland, but when it comes to forking over cash for someone elses plight, you all start sounding like pushy preachers on Sunday morning.

Parody:

A: Gee, things look bad over there in the Indian ocean. Maybe I should donate some money.
[Turns on TV and sees liberal B pleading for donations]
B: You need to give money for those poor flood victims. They need your help. Send your money to us and we'll take care of the problem.
A: Ok. (Writes check for $100)
B: One hundred dollars!!?? Is that all you got? You stingy SOB, sitting there in your heated home, sipping your wine, swimming in your cash.
A: Um, ok. (Writes check for $500)
B: Oh, come on. What do you make? One million a year? Think of the children!
A: Errr. (getting irritated, writes check for $1000)
B: Oh, please! How much do you weigh anyway? I'll bet you could stand to lose a few pound. Don't you know that there are flood victims that haven't eaten for two weeks!?
A: Cripes, how much do you need!?
B: As much as we can get. What is your gross income anyway? Would it kill you to give 10% of your gross income? Seems pretty meager compared to the people that lost everything.
A: First of all, it's none of your damn business what my gross income is. Second of all, how do I know that this money is going toward the flood victoms and not winding up in the hands of third world dictators to buy weapons like the whole Oil for Food thing that you guys gyped me for last time?
B: Oh, you working class slobs are all the same. Giving all kinds of excuses just to stiff the poor. You make me sick. All you think about is yourself. Wait until I get the news crews to point a camera in your face and record your hate mongering comments.
A: Ok, fine. Here's $5000. That's all you're going to get.

Tonight on the news, we hear the story of A, the man who B claims is not only stingy, but only gave money to the flood victims to feel good about himself. What a bastard. I hope A rots in hell. Back to you, Peter.

[Meanwhile, B passes all the money to tsunamivictims.com, a website that claims to be collecting money for the tsunami vicitms, but is actaully a guy named frank that's using it to support his gambling addiction]

Go to hell, liberals.

 

[AtheistArchon]

- I honestly believe the "stingy" bit is being blown out of proportion. No doubt it really was said, and no doubt there's a grain of truth in it (i.e. we're spending a heck of a lot on 'defensive' (not really) measures), but I honestly don't think the world at large believes it.

- Could we (the nation) give more? Sure we could, we always *could*. It's worth noting also that a few places are not accepting aid, or at least most kinds we're offering.

- Please note that this has nothing to do with my opinions about the government leadership, that's another thread gone by. I'm a pretty liberal guy, and I think we're doing ok as a nation in the generosity field, all things being equal.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Dear, dear, Almighty Bruce...whose posts I so enjoy...

Is it fair to paint everyone with one brush?. Both parties, Dems and Reps, are using this tragedy against each other politically. Surely you see and hear it everyday. Hannity was raging last night about what the "Hollywood" group has done to help the victims, compared with their efforts on behalf of Kerry? When Colmes produced a list of the contributions made by Sandra Bullock, Leo DiCaprio, several rock groups, etc....Hannity acted as if he couldn't hear him. Likewise, some liberal nutcases are screaming about Bush's slow response, etc. Who cares? We're getting aid over there, aren't we?

"Liberals" and "Conservatives" are individual Americans and I believe the majority of Americans, despite their political or religious views, have taken this tragedy to heart and have responded to the best of their ability. Could more be done? Perhaps. The media broadcasts different websites and phone numbers every night that people can contact. I know my employer as well as many others, have provided as much information as possible to people who want to donate. America's efforts, when compared to those of Saudi Arabia, are sterling in comparison...I'm sure you agree.

I know folks who span the spectrum: deeply conservative, moderate and deeply liberal . They all seem to share the same amount of empathy and concern for the tsunami victims.

Don't let a couple of loud-mouths who simply want air time spoil your view of an entire group.

 

[Snide]

I stopped reading at this point: "you all start sounding like pushy preachers on Sunday morning."

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I hate it. I detest it. It makes me absolutely sick. It's none of your's or anyone else's damn business how much someone donates to a cause. Cripes. You liberals can whine all day about America turning into Jesusland, but when it comes to forking over cash for someone elses plight, you all start sounding like pushy preachers on Sunday morning.

Parody:

A: Gee, things look bad over there in the Indian ocean. Maybe I should donate some money.
[Turns on TV and sees liberal B pleading for donations]
B: You need to give money for those poor flood victims. They need your help. Send your money to us and we'll take care of the problem.
A: Ok. (Writes check for $100)
B: One hundred dollars!!?? Is that all you got? You stingy SOB, sitting there in your heated home, sipping your wine, swimming in your cash.
A: Um, ok. (Writes check for $500)
B: Oh, come on. What do you make? One million a year? Think of the children!
A: Errr. (getting irritated, writes check for $1000)
B: Oh, please! How much do you weigh anyway? I'll bet you could stand to lose a few pound. Don't you know that there are flood victims that haven't eaten for two weeks!?
A: Cripes, how much do you need!?
B: As much as we can get. What is your gross income anyway? Would it kill you to give 10% of your gross income? Seems pretty meager compared to the people that lost everything.
A: First of all, it's none of your damn business what my gross income is. Second of all, how do I know that this money is going toward the flood victoms and not winding up in the hands of third world dictators to buy weapons like the whole Oil for Food thing that you guys gyped me for last time?
B: Oh, you working class slobs are all the same. Giving all kinds of excuses just to stiff the poor. You make me sick. All you think about is yourself. Wait until I get the news crews to point a camera in your face and record your hate mongering comments.
A: Ok, fine. Here's $5000. That's all you're going to get.

Tonight on the news, we hear the story of A, the man who B claims is not only stingy, but only gave money to the flood victims to feel good about himself. What a bastard. I hope A rots in hell. Back to you, Peter.

[Meanwhile, B passes all the money to tsunamivictims.com, a website that claims to be collecting money for the tsunami vicitms, but is actaully a guy named frank that's using it to support his gambling addiction]

Go to hell, liberals.

You're full of crap, as this thread demonstrates. As a percentage of GNP, you gave a quarter (as of this writing) that Australia did. Many nations beat you in those stakes. Yet, the US is one of the richest nations in the world. Frankly, this is miserliness.

At the Self Service Science Forum, when the planes hit on 9/11, Australians were asking how they could donate blood to help the victims. Think about that for a moment. In hindsight, we can now say, "You may as well not bother, because the Americans would never do nearly as much (collectively) if the same thing should happen to you".

I imagine you're because you're finally beginning to see your country for what it is, your feeble attempts at rationalisation aside. Greedy, stingy, selfish.

 

[Bruce]

Dear, dear, Almighty Bruce...whose posts I so enjoy...

Is it fair to paint everyone with one brush?. Both parties, Dems and Reps, are using this tragedy against each other politically.

Don't let a couple of loud-mouths who simply want air time spoil your view of an entire group.

You are right. When I was in college, I would paint all Republicans with the same brush, and now that I'm working, I'm painting Democrats with the same brush. Thank you for reminding me that they are both self-serving A-holes.

People are helping other people. That's what counts.

 

[Bruce]

Re: Re: Criticizing donations

As a percentage of GNP, you gave a quarter (as of this writing) that Australia did. Many nations beat you in those stakes. Yet, the US is one of the richest nations in the world. Frankly, this is miserliness.

Did you even read the post that you quoted, fool? This is exactly the kind of condescending attitude towards giving that I'm mocking.

I imagine you're because you're finally beginning to see your country for what it is, your feeble attempts at rationalisation aside. Greedy, stingy, selfish.

United States bad, Australia good. Sheesh. And you accuse us of flag waving.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Re: Re: Re: Criticizing donations

You are full of crap. Is it any wonder why no one had responded to that thread?

You did. You even devoted a whole thread to it.

Did you even read the post that you quoted, fool? This is exactly the kind of condescending attitude towards giving that I'm mocking.

Uh, no it isn't. Of the major donors, your country is waaay down on the list. Clearly many Americans have given a pittance, if anything. It isn't a matter of, 'you can never give enough', it is a simple case of 'loosen your purse strings for once in your life'.

United States bad, Australia good. Sheesh. And you accuse us of flag waving.

You've missed the point again. I don't think you, or many other Americans, realised how much sympathy your country got after 9/11. The example I cited is simply one instance. Another one, quickly forgotten by just about everyone in the US, is the French newspapers proclaim, "Today we are all Americans". Now lots of Americans spit on them, calling them surrender monkeys. That's how the US (collectively) shows her gratitude.

 

[Dan Beaird]

Donations

Now why is it that only cash pledged by the government counts towards the aid that the U.S. is providing? From the figures I've seen so far the total U.S. monetary contribution exceeds 650 million dollars from all sources including private contributions. More importantly the U.S. has provided substantial material aid in the form of supplies, personnel and facilities (de-salinization ships, aircraft etc) as well as pledged to assist in rebuilding the region.

The victims of the disaster cannot eat or drink money. They need food, water, medical supplies, shelter and all of the physical necessities which make life possible. There is a practical limit to what money can do in this situation. Like other governments the U.S. government contribution continues to grow as the perceived need for money grows.

The U.S. has a tradition of private charity. Our citizens choose to donate or not donate as their nature and means allow. Frankly I've seen a lot of anger directed at the U.S. by outsiders (and insiders) who seem to feel that they are better judges of how Americans should spend their money than the people who earn it.

Perhaps we should just give a percentage of our GDP proportionate directly to the percentage of foreign GDP provided to the U.S. following 9/11 and the Florida hurricanes last year.

The way I see it, if a source deliberately avoids using a figure that accurately represents the aid coming from the U.S. they are merely spreading propoganda in furtherance of their own political agendas. It's painfully obvious to even casual observers.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Criticizing donations

Uh, no it isn't. Of the major donors, your country is waaay down on the list. Clearly many Americans have given a pittance, if anything. It isn't a matter of, 'you can never give enough', it is a simple case of 'loosen your purse strings for once in your life'.

http://www.nbc5.com/news/4045556/detail.html??z=dp&dpswid=1167317&dppid=65194

You don't think we're "loosening our purse strings"? I'm curious, .. is your percentage of GNP number reflective of the helicopters, hospital ship and 2.5 million dollars a day it costs us to operate our efforts over there? Does it capture the $100k an hour that we are apparently still donating?

(If my link doesn't work, let me know. I don't do this often )

The reality is, Mr. M, that the U.S. will be damned and criticized no matter what efforts she makes. Please, as I cautioned Bruce, don't paint all Americans with one brush, either. We have not forgotten all of the world's sympathy toward us after 9/11. Our problems with France date back before then, BTW.

And give us a little credit. We're providing aid to a country where folks walk around with pictures of Osama Bin Laden on their t-shirts. Should the depth of one's generosity and compassion always be measured by $ signs?

 

[Ladyhawk]

Re: Donations

The victims of the disaster cannot eat or drink money. They need food, water, medical supplies, shelter and all of the physical necessities which make life possible. There is a practical limit to what money can do in this situation. Like other governments the U.S. government contribution continues to grow as the perceived need for money grows.

The U.S. has a tradition of private charity. Our citizens choose to donate or not donate as their nature and means allow. Frankly I've seen a lot of anger within the U.S. directed at outsiders (and insiders) who seem to feel that they are better judges of how Americans should spend their money than the people who earn it.

Well put.

Perhaps we should just give a percentage of our GDP proportionate directly to the percentage of foreign GDP provided to the U.S. following 9/11 and the Florida hurricanes last year.

Oh, boy and would we EVER hear it then!

 

[Bruce]

This thread has forced me to change my sig.

 

[Tmy]

THe US is not the only target.

Theres been stories (and a thread here) on how little the mid east countries are giving.

I was watching Fox News and they listed the amounts sent by mid east countries, but they forgot to include Isreal in their list?? Are they not a mideast country??? (I dont think Israel sent any money either.)

Read tween the lines and its more "look how bad these arabs are" propaganda. Just like the anti-US propaganda.

 

[Thanz]

Re: Donations

Now why is it that only cash pledged by the government counts towards the aid that the U.S. is providing? From the figures I've seen so far the total U.S. monetary contribution exceeds 650 million dollars from all sources including private contributions. More importantly the U.S. has provided substantial material aid in the form of supplies, personnel and facilities (de-salinization ships, aircraft etc) as well as pledged to assist in rebuilding the region.

The victims of the disaster cannot eat or drink money. They need food, water, medical supplies, shelter and all of the physical necessities which make life possible. There is a practical limit to what money can do in this situation. Like other governments the U.S. government contribution continues to grow as the perceived need for money grows.

Actually, the leading charities are asking for money rather than tangibles as it is the easiest way to get the required supplies (logistically) to the people who need it.

Further, according to the link provided by Ladyhawk, private donations in the US are about $200 million. Commendable to be sure. Donations in Canada currently stand at about $70 million Canadian, which is about 57 million US. With about a tenth of the population.

Perhaps we should just give a percentage of our GDP proportionate directly to the percentage of foreign GDP provided to the U.S. following 9/11 and the Florida hurricanes last year.

The death toll as a result of the tidal waves is about 150 000 people. The death toll of the Florida hurricanes is at least 1000 times less than that. Perhaps you shouldn't be comparing the two, as they are not even remotely comparable.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Re: Re: Donations

Further, according to the link provided by Ladyhawk, private donations in the US are about $200 million. Commendable to be sure. Donations in Canada currently stand at about $70 million Canadian, which is about 57 million US. With about a tenth of the population.

But, note, that the efforts are still ongoing, Thanz. And, again, I don't know that private donations should be the sole measure of support here. I think the U.S military efforts (hospital ship, helicopters, etc) are worth recognizing.

Also, your point about the Florida hurricanes vs. the Tsunami is well-taken. Still, it seems the world perceives the U.S. depending on the crisis of the day. We're accused of acting like the 'world's policemen' but the minute tragedy strikes, we're the ones expected to take the lead.

It's ain't easy being us.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Re: Re: Criticizing donations

Yet, the US is one of the richest nations in the world. Frankly, this is miserliness.

The country may be rich, but I'm not. I gave what I could. I don't make a lot of money, and I'm still paying for my education. Thank you very much for telling me I should give more, that it doesn't satisfy you.

It's a good thing I wasn't aiming to please you; I don't see the point in having unattainable goals.

 

[rikzilla]

Re: Re: Re: Criticizing donations

It's a good thing I wasn't aiming to please you; I don't see the point in having unattainable goals.

Not really,...pleasing MM is not completely impossible. Just renounce your US citizenship and head for Canada while pledging all your earthly possessions to tsumanirelief.com.

Well...then he might just keep hating you for the audacity of being born American...so after you've done all the above...kill yourself. MM would not be able to help cracking a smile at that.

-z

 

[Dan Beaird]

Re: Re: Donations

Actually, the leading charities are asking for money rather than tangibles as it is the easiest way to get the required supplies (logistically) to the people who need it.

Money is not a direct relief supply. Yes, money may be used to purchase the things necessary and the resources to deliver them but all that takes time. Certainly money is needed, and I did not mean to imply that it is not. However, immediate relief is best provided by the people who hold these assets. We can't just hand people a bundle of greenbacks and tell them to go about their normal lives.

Further, according to the link provided by Ladyhawk, private donations in the US are about $200 million. Commendable to be sure. Donations in Canada currently stand at about $70 million Canadian, which is about 57 million US. With about a tenth of the population.

I've seen all sorts of numbers floating around. They all seem to differ on what they count as aid and what they don't. The figure I gave is theoretically the total monetary aid from all sources in the United States. So rather than just compare one component of the equation, I'm trying to look at the whole picture. At this point people are waisting time counting pennies when they should be concerned with insuring that the people are getting what they need to survive. It's bad enough to lose 150,000+ in the tsunami, let's try not to lose any more to disease, de-hydration and starvation. To deal with that we must get food, water and medicine to the stricken areas. Money helps but it is not what the people there need right now.

The death toll as a result of the tidal waves is about 150 000 people. The death toll of the Florida hurricanes is at least 1000 times less than that. Perhaps you shouldn't be comparing the two, as they are not even remotely comparable.

Why not? Let's say the total is 1000 times less than that and therefore we should multiply foreign aid to the U.S. (as a percentage of GDP) by 1000 to arrive at an appropriate figure. Think the world would be happy with that number?

Remember something: whatever the U.S. or anyone else provides to the relief of the victims is a gift. It is provided out of the goodness of our hearts and feeling for our fellow man. If you'd rather keep score than help the victims, well that's your right I suppose. But don't you think it detracts from the real purpose? This has turned into just another vehicle for bashing the U.S. and has less and less to do with helping the victims each day.

 

[roger]

Let's see, the US alone has contributed almost 1/6* of the total aid, and is leading the recovery effort. I don't feel shame about that.

America initially offered 15m of government aid, but then upped it considerably. Australia initially offered 7m of governmeent aid, but then upped it considerably (and, to be fair, much higher than the US government aid). But the US was the one that was shamed into it? okayyyy...


* 1/6 calculated from the #s offered on wikipedia on 4Jan05.

Edited to add: let me make clear, I consider Australia's charity in this issue to be extraordinarily generous, commendable, and worthy of emulation by everyone. No bashing of the country or it's people is intended or warranted.

 

[Bruce]

Re: Re: Re: Donations

Remember something: whatever the U.S. or anyone else provides to the relief of the victims is a gift. It is provided out of the goodness of our hearts and feeling for our fellow man. If you'd rather keep score than help the victims, well that's your right I suppose. But don't you think it detracts from the real purpose? This has turned into just another vehicle for bashing the U.S. and has less and less to do with helping the victims each day.

I agree with you here. I tend to be a big media critic. I think the media of all the big countries have goaded their prospective governments into turning the relief effort into a virtual bidding war and national bragging rights. Does anyone in the world honestly believe that the victims are keeping score as to which country gave the most money!?!?! Do you think they will take you off their Christmas list if you don't give enough? I would hope that the majority of the world population is smarter than that.