Could we do a better job with the world than God did?

[Darat]

I would consider the eradication of smallpox and such things as pretty good evidence that we can do it better, just as its existence seems like pretty good evidence that the world we're in was not created by a god, but a motivated theist could come up with a host of other possibilities.

We cannot, after all, run a control on the history of the world. We can make up a million possible stories in which, for reasons we needn't elaborate, the world would ultimately be better off if we hadn't gotten rid of smallpox in the way we did. Or, as some people have suggested, it could be a bone thrown to the human race to make them feel good, and all part of the plan.

The arguments for doing it better tend to be anthropocentric, which is in accord with the way the human authors of the Bible spun the story too. Sure, if we were in charge we could make a universe that's better for us, but if the universe was created by a god, he's the god of it all, the small things too. There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow, so we're told, and the smallpox virus is a part of creation too.

He is rather wasteful, all the universe created just so humans can exist. If you took the volume of where we can inhabit as a percentage of the volume of the universe, we're as close to zero as to make no difference!

 

[Darat]

I did post about this earlier: perhaps you missed it.
There is some basis for the idea that God (Jehovah) wants to turn us into gods (not Jehovah, but still godly in some way):

I agree gnosticism and mysticism have often been entwinned with Christianity right from the beginning, but is only a fringe theology these days, remaining in some of the smaller churches.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I agree gnosticism and mysticism have often been entwinned with Christianity right from the beginning, but is only a fringe theology these days, remaining in some of the smaller churches.

Which I said, in my original post. There is, however, still Biblical justification for this belief, which was the thrust of your question.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

You can use a different word if you like.

You are making this up.
There is nothing in the Bible about having to do anything in heaven or hell after getting your judgement.
Life is a Test, not a training program for later challenges.

You should ask for your money back from whomever taught you Christianity.

 

[Darat]

Which I said, in my original post. There is, however, still Biblical justification for this belief, which was the thrust of your question.

Some Christian churches believe that is so but not the majority of Christian churches. And the thrust of my question was exactly what I asked i.e. where in the bible is psionl0's aprenticeship to be found?

 

[bruto]

He is rather wasteful, all the universe created just so humans can exist. If you took the volume of where we can inhabit as a percentage of the volume of the universe, we're as close to zero as to make no difference!

/Sure, but it's only the human-authored account that claims we're the purpose of the universe. I realize that this is the account that most theists, especially Christians, take for granted, but one could, in theory I think, reject the biased account of the hypocritical [your choice of zeroed-out expletive here] who wrote the Bible, and the underlying idea of there having been a creator god. You'd be more deist than theist, but in losing the idea of our being specially favored, you'd absolve God of having done such a poor job of serving us.

 

[Venom]

God in the Old Testament in particular could mess up. Cause he was essentially just a really powerful guy. He had limitations like the gods of neighboring cultures.

But to the OP, I'm glad that we don't have god-like powers with everything else about us being the same. I know people who would like there to be a hell, just the most purely evil idea imaginable. Any good that could be done I'm okay with it not happening, just so the other extreme can't be a reality.

 

[GDon]

Some Christian churches believe that is so but not the majority of Christian churches. And the thrust of my question was exactly what I asked i.e. where in the bible is psionl0's aprenticeship to be found?

Isn't that the idea behind us becoming "sons of God"?

Rom 8:

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...

Also possibly:

Phil 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke...
The idea is that we become Sons of God through our actions and confessing that Jesus is Lord. Not sure if that is what psion10 meant by 'apprenticeship', but the NT does show the idea of what we are to do to become immortal creatures like Jesus.

 

[psionl0]

Care to point out the passages that mention we are serving an apprenticeship?

OK you got me. The word "apprenticeship" doesn't appear in the bible. If you want to conclude that there is no form of training whatsoever before a human moves towards towards the next life then I can't stop you being illogical.

But for those with half a brain, the bible says that God gave Adam work in the garden of Eden. It seems unlikely that he did so because he wanted free labour. Similarly, Jesus is known as a "teacher" in the NT. Again, he was not teaching nothing.

Make of that what you will. Maybe "apprenticeship" seems too strong a word but clearly some training/education is necessary in this life.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

OK you got me. The word "apprenticeship" doesn't appear in the bible. If you want to conclude that there is no form of training whatsoever before a human moves towards towards the next life then I can't stop you being illogical.

But for those with half a brain, the bible says that God gave Adam work in the garden of Eden. It seems unlikely that he did so because he wanted free labour. Similarly, Jesus is known as a "teacher" in the NT. Again, he was not teaching nothing.

Make of that what you will. Maybe "apprenticeship" seems too strong a word but clearly some training/education is necessary in this life.

This is pure desperation.
Do, please, walk me through the steps between 'becoming a gardener' and 'attaining godhood'.

 

[psionl0]

Do, please, walk me through the steps between 'becoming a gardener' and 'attaining godhood'.

What makes you think that Adam was just pulling out weeds?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

What makes you think that Adam was just pulling out weeds?

I didn't say he was just pulling out weeds: I said he was a gardener.
I said that, because that's what the Bible says:
Genesis 2:15: The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.

Now, can you please detail the steps between becoming a gardener and attaining divinity?

 

[Myriad]

Now, can you please detail the steps between becoming a gardener and attaining divinity?

Oh, that's an easy one.

Starting out as a gardener you begin by planting and nurturing, but you soon learn that most of the job is about cutting back and tearing out. Anything that grows in the wrong place or the wrong way or is past its due season you uproot and (with a very few exceptions you might choose to transplant) toss on the mulch pile to rot. To the individual plants you would seem to be cruelty and destruction personified, but you're doing it because you have a plan they couldn't understand. You can even justify the plan as being for the plants' collective long-term good, because if you stopped doing what you're doing, most of the species there would die out. So you weed and prune, and sometimes chop up or uproot everything in a section ("cultivate"), you protect your plants by fencing out (or trapping or poisoning) herbivores that would harm them in ways you don't want them harmed until it's time to consume and destroy them yourself, and you can tell from its beauty how much your love your garden and it loves you.

Tell me that's not excellent training to behave in the manner of the Old Testament God.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Oh, that's an easy one.

Starting out as a gardener you begin by planting and nurturing, but you soon learn that most of the job is about cutting back and tearing out. Anything that grows in the wrong place or the wrong way or is past its due season you uproot and (with a very few exceptions you might choose to transplant) toss on the mulch pile to rot. To the individual plants you would seem to be cruelty and destruction personified, but you're doing it because you have a plan they couldn't understand. You can even justify the plan as being for the plants' collective long-term good, because if you stopped doing what you're doing, most of the species there would die out. So you weed and prune, and sometimes chop up or uproot everything in a section ("cultivate"), you protect your plants by fencing out (or trapping or poisoning) herbivores that would harm them in ways you don't want them harmed until it's time to consume and destroy them yourself, and you can tell from its beauty how much your love your garden and it loves you.

Tell me that's not excellent training to behave in the manner of the Old Testament God.

Partly, but you forgot about planting parts of the garden the wrong way and then blaming the plants.