Cornwall isolated by storm

SusanB-M1 said:
On the news it said that brunel wanted to build a tunnel at Dawlish, but the funds were not allocated. I googled Europe and it seems that the Netherlands have coped best. Here at Barton-on-Sea, the cliffs are quite high. They do not get battered much by the sea, but water draining from inland has in the past caused cliff subsidence.
(And Bolivia has flooded too!)
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My partner is Dutch. Our floundering about when a little rain falls cracks her up. We should chuck our hand in and ask the Dutch to take over.
 
Soapy Sam said:
This becomes a problem when once in a century conditions start to recur ever 2-3 years.
There is a real question to be asked here. Is it economically justifiable to keep dredging or does it make sense to move everyone out of the area? Coastal erosion and coastal flooding are realities that must be addressed and the answer may be to give up some territory.
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Way above my pay grade. I have no clue what's best and what's not. I do know a panicky politician when I see one and it's not pretty.
 
anglolawyer said:
My partner is Dutch. Our floundering about when a little rain falls cracks her up. We should chuck our hand in and ask the Dutch to take over.
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From what I understand is that the engineering skills are there in this country but the political will and/or budget isn't. In part it's understandable, two years ago we were having the vapours about how to cope with the lack of rain and now we've got precisely the opposite problem. I can understand that a politician doesn't want to schedule billions of pounds of expenditure on one problem to look like an idiot when the opposite problem occurs for the next 20 years.

Soapy Sam has raised a good point about whether these swings between drought and flooding is the new normal. If this is the case then maybe it's worth understanding the long term effects before launching into multi-billion pound schemes which hay prove to be totally ineffective.

It's interesting to see the spat developing between Eric Pickles and the Environment Agency. Pickles has clearly seen an opportunity to take a swipe at a quango and sees it as a way of building some political capital and taking a swipe at Lord Smith in the process. I'm glad to see that the Environment Agency is standing its ground and saying the issue isn't one pf policy but of alack of funds from the government to implement the policy.

Pickles criticism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...advice-of-the-environment-agency-9117340.html
 
The Don said:
From what I understand is that the engineering skills are there in this country but the political will and/or budget isn't. In part it's understandable, two years ago we were having the vapours about how to cope with the lack of rain and now we've got precisely the opposite problem. I can understand that a politician doesn't want to schedule billions of pounds of expenditure on one problem to look like an idiot when the opposite problem occurs for the next 20 years.

Soapy Sam has raised a good point about whether these swings between drought and flooding is the new normal. If this is the case then maybe it's worth understanding the long term effects before launching into multi-billion pound schemes which hay prove to be totally ineffective.

It's interesting to see the spat developing between Eric Pickles and the Environment Agency. Pickles has clearly seen an opportunity to take a swipe at a quango and sees it as a way of building some political capital and taking a swipe at Lord Smith in the process. I'm glad to see that the Environment Agency is standing its ground and saying the issue isn't one pf policy but of alack of funds from the government to implement the policy.

Pickles criticism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...advice-of-the-environment-agency-9117340.html
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Yes, the political bunfight is what interests me most, what with knowing nothing about hydro-engineering, climate change and the like. The sight of politicians and quango-types scrambling over each other to make hay or avoid harm is truly marvellous. They all know we shall have forgotten all about the Somerset levels (only 25 square miles and a handful of homes out of 96,000 and millions) in a couple of weeks and just need to survive this crisis and get ready to exploit the next. Ah, democracy! The worst system except for all the rest, like Churchill (?) said.
 
anglolawyer said:
Yes, the political bunfight is what interests me most, what with knowing nothing about hydro-engineering, climate change and the like. The sight of politicians and quango-types scrambling over each other to make hay or avoid harm is truly marvellous. They all know we shall have forgotten all about the Somerset levels (only 25 square miles and a handful of homes out of 96,000 and millions) in a couple of weeks and just need to survive this crisis and get ready to exploit the next. Ah, democracy! The worst system except for all the rest, like Churchill (?) said.
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The bunfight may get sticky shortly if the Thames embankment starts to overflow. Groundwater levels in SE England started rising some years ago with the closure of the many manufacturing industries that had drawn levels down.

If the underground and crossrail find they start having pumping problems, and some home counties types find sewage in the swimming pool, I predict an increased government concern in hydrology in general.
 
Soapy Sam said:
The bunfight may get sticky shortly if the Thames embankment starts to overflow. Groundwater levels in SE England started rising some years ago with the closure of the many manufacturing industries that had drawn levels down.

If the underground and crossrail find they start having pumping problems, and some home counties types find sewage in the swimming pool, I predict an increased government concern in hydrology in general.
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Yeah. The Thames Barrier is all well and good when there's a high tide or two but what do you do when the water's coming from the other direction?
 
commandlinegamer said:
Yeah. The Thames Barrier is all well and good when there's a high tide or two but what do you do when the water's coming from the other direction?
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Fantastic! Bring it on. It's only last year (I think) that we were turning into the Sahara, now it's some kind of rain forest type deal. We'll soon have tarantulas and crocs.
 
Soapy Sam said:
The bunfight may get sticky shortly if the Thames embankment starts to overflow. Groundwater levels in SE England started rising some years ago with the closure of the many manufacturing industries that had drawn levels down.

If the underground and crossrail find they start having pumping problems, and some home counties types find sewage in the swimming pool, I predict an increased government concern in hydrology in general.
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Re: groundwater levels.

I was googling to find some data and I was interested to find this which seems to say that groundwater levels in many parts of the South East are still between severe drought and moderate drought levels. I find that very hard to believe.

source: http://www.southeastwater.co.uk/our-environment/water-resources/groundwater-levels#ad-image-0

and scroll through the graphs.


edited to add...

The environment agency reports are more consistent with my understanding, between "above normal" and "notably high"

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/publications/127606.aspx
 
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The Don said:
Eric Pickles has clearly been given a slap on the wrist because his language has been far more moderate in the last couple of hours while he has been answering questions in the House of Commons.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/publications/127606.aspx

Now that it's the Thames that's flooding, I'm sure that government action will be swift.
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Oh yes, I am sure the Thames will be dredged overnight and the army will be redeployed from Somerset too. We can't have the home counties troubled in any way. Important people live there.
 
It may be my imagination but the Thames flooding is certainly getting a lot of coverage, even more than the drowning badgers in Somerset. I guess it's true what they say that if it isn't happening in the home counties then it isn't happening at all.

One thing that we should bear in mind is that despite all the rain and despite the alleged incompetence of the Environment Agency, the death toll to date is very low.


edited to add......

I've just heard a piece on the radio where the reporter is going "oh my gosh, oh my gosh, the water is half way up the sofa". In my local pub a couple of days before Christmas it was more than waist deep. I have a lot of sympathy for those poor people who have been flooded out of their homes but we need to get some perspective.
 
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The Don said:
It may be my imagination but the Thames flooding is certainly getting a lot of coverage, even more than the drowning badgers in Somerset. I guess it's true what they say that if it isn't happening in the home counties then it isn't happening at all.

One thing that we should bear in mind is that despite all the rain and despite the alleged incompetence of the Environment Agency, the death toll to date is very low.


edited to add......

I've just heard a piece on the radio where the reporter is going "oh my gosh, oh my gosh, the water is half way up the sofa". In my local pub a couple of days before Christmas it was more than waist deep. I have a lot of sympathy for those poor people who have been flooded out of their homes but we need to get some perspective.
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There are a lot of wealthy (=influential and powerful) people living in expensive property beside the Thames. On the Somerset levels, maybe not so much.
 
I lived for years pretty close to the Levels and fished the River Brue many times, so I went googling for riverside webcams in that area. No luck, but many such webcams had a stock photo by their linky so it was easy to compare 'normal' with their current state. Shocking stuff.

But part of the problem with the rivers on The Levels is that they're so, well, level. Even after endless rain they don't gain that much pace - they just get bloody deep.

As mentioned by others, if this kind of weather becomes a regular thing then any help from dredging would be an endless committment.

It's a real shame for a fascinating and strangely beautiful area.

added: The River ParrettWP - "Because the fall of the river between Langport and Bridgwater is only 1 foot per mile (0.2 m/km) ....."
 
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I had a very "interesting" conversation at a dinner party over the weekend regarding dredging. The interlocutor was an ex civil engineer and was of the opinion that all it needed was better engineering. On further prompting he was firmly of the opinion that all land should be protected from flooding or erosion regardless of the cost.

I've found it impossible to get a truly unbiased view but it appears that whilst politicians have latched onto dredging as the solution to all problems, the real solution is likely to be much more complicated than than. One of the proposals is to deliberately flood apparently less valuable land upstream. While I can see this making sense from a hydro-engineering point of view I can also see how it will play in the media with poor people accusing the government of deliberately flooding their land to protect richer people downstream.

Working out what the new normal is likely to be is a key thing. My dinner companion was of the view that all of this had been modeled, I'm not sure, there are a *lot* of variables involved.
 
If the rain keeps coming, one potential problem for London is contamination by sewage in river water of the reservoirs around Staines and Wraybury.
 
The Don said:
From what I understand is that the engineering skills are there in this country but the political will and/or budget isn't. In part it's understandable, two years ago we were having the vapours about how to cope with the lack of rain and now we've got precisely the opposite problem. I can understand that a politician doesn't want to schedule billions of pounds of expenditure on one problem to look like an idiot when the opposite problem occurs for the next 20 years.

Soapy Sam has raised a good point about whether these swings between drought and flooding is the new normal. If this is the case then maybe it's worth understanding the long term effects before launching into multi-billion pound schemes which hay prove to be totally ineffective.

It's interesting to see the spat developing between Eric Pickles and the Environment Agency. Pickles has clearly seen an opportunity to take a swipe at a quango and sees it as a way of building some political capital and taking a swipe at Lord Smith in the process. I'm glad to see that the Environment Agency is standing its ground and saying the issue isn't one pf policy but of alack of funds from the government to implement the policy.

Pickles criticism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...advice-of-the-environment-agency-9117340.html
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anglolawyer said:
Yes, the political bunfight is what interests me most, what with knowing nothing about hydro-engineering, climate change and the like. The sight of politicians and quango-types scrambling over each other to make hay or avoid harm is truly marvellous. They all know we shall have forgotten all about the Somerset levels (only 25 square miles and a handful of homes out of 96,000 and millions) in a couple of weeks and just need to survive this crisis and get ready to exploit the next. Ah, democracy! The worst system except for all the rest, like Churchill (?) said.
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From here.

In 2006 Anthony Steen, MP for nearby Totnes, foretold the loss of the coastal line. In 2011 the issue of the line was raised by the County Council, with their concerns rebuffed by Network Rail and the Environment Minister, who claimed there was nothing to worry about - "there is no immediate risk to the rail line at Dawlish for the next 20 years."
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Meanwhile it snowed in Dublin today.
 
And the BBC reports that rare 'red alerts' have been issued for the next storm, due on Wednesday. Is there an end in sight?
 
We're on the edge of the red alert for wind area and the wind is picking up in quite a frightening way at the moment. Our biggest worry is a whopping big oak which we asked the landowner repeatedly to address (but who hasn't) which if it comes down will squash the garage and workshop (and Jaguar contained therein). The tree itself is solid but the ground is so wet that similar trees have been uprooted by the wind.

The long range forecast is for a continuing series of Atlantic depressions to come through for the foreseeable future so more of the same for the next few weeks at least.

Groundwater levels are now reported as being so high that the problems will continue for weeks even if the rain stops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26136975

Also:

The agency said it looked "increasingly likely" there would be problems along the River Severn and River Wye.
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Oh goody, so if the trees don't get us the floods will.
 
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