Merged Core-led collapse and explosive demolition

Grizzly Bear said:
I don't know about ergo, but I'll take an anonymous internet figure who is factually accurate with what he's talking about over a named expert who can't even tie his shoes worth with his knowledge in the field.
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Yes, we already know this. This is why you're bedunkers rather than debunkers.

Edited by Myriad: 
Edited quoted text to restore the original wording and meaning. Do not alter quotes of other members' posts in a misleading way.
 
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Ergo...just do it already and get it over with.

Ergo: Name and refute ONE truther lie.

Noah: OK - Pyroclastic cloud. Here's proof.

Ergo: .....................

Noah: Ergo, still with us?

Ergo.............

Noah: Anyone seen ergo?

Ergo ..... Oh! Someone else said something I can respond to, allowing me to ignore Noah's proof that truther's lie to this day! Sweet. Maybe if I'm quiet, nobody'll notice that a NEWBIE just schooled me.

"I was wrong"

Come on. Only 3 little words!
 
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
I don't know about ergo, but I'll take an anonymous internet figure ... over a named expert

Yes, we already know this. This is why you're bedunkers rather than debunkers.

Geeze, isn't "remove relevant portions of quotes" in the truther's manual?

Who's the newbie?
 
ergo said:
Neither do the words "the", "of", "by", "and", "in", "had".... :eye-poppi

Btw, it's called expert opinion. Got any?
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Actually, it is not since you never explained why these guys should be considered experts.

As for the commonly held narrative, did you miss NIST, Purdue, MIT, etc?
 
NoahFence said:
Who's the newbie?
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1203823532016kz0.jpg
 
NoahFence said:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
I don't know about ergo, but I'll take an anonymous internet figure ... over a named expert

Yes, we already know this. This is why you're bedunkers rather than debunkers.

Geeze, isn't "remove relevant portions of quotes" in the truther's manual?

Who's the newbie?
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THat is the only way troofers can preserve their religious beliefs:p
 
ergo said:
Btw, it's called expert opinion. Got any?
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It's called facts... got any? If you do then maybe that 9/11 Fact Movement RedIbis has been wanting to start for years can finally get off the ground! But so far, not a single 9/11 fact pointing to inside jobby job. But it's only been 9 1/2 years or so... clearly not enough time for the crack 9/11 TruthTM experts to discover their first fact. They're only human... dimwitted, often mentally ill humans but humans nonetheless.
 
Hasn't ergo figured out yet that every time he calls someone a bedunker he's actually complimenting them? He just flat out admitted that an expert can say anything he wants and be credible just by giving his real name. If that's his definition of intelligence, I'll take my "bedunker" label with stride.
 
ergo,

ergo said:
I don't care what you've watched. If you can't formulate a coherent argument that uses factual, sourced information, then your pontifications are little more than stale air.
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From the person who sources nothing.
The irony meter just exploded.

I gave you an explicit argument;

1. In the case that FFs think that there are bombs around, they are trained to move people back, pull themselves back, identify the area as a bomb threat and call for the bomb squad.

2. Many FFs reported hearing explosions. (MacQueen cites around 115, IIRC.) If those FFs thought that the explosions were really the result of explosives, then, following their training, they WOULD HAVE moved people (including FFs) back, identified the area as a bomb threat & called the bomb squad.

3. They didn't clear people out, identify the area as a bomb threat, & call for the bomb squad.

Conclusion: those FFs, by their actions, demonstrate that they did NOT think that the explosions that they reported were the results of bombs or explosives.

Your inability to follow the argument is your problem, not mine.

BTW, citing the source for "something that WAS said" is easy.
That'd be YOUR job. I told you exactly where to look: the FFs' oral history files.

Citing a source for "something that is NOT said" is a touch more problematic.
The source is the entire audio & video record of FFs communications on that day and the oral histories later, with few (if any) calls for the bomb squad.

ergo said:
tfk said:
Feel free to cite quotations from FFs who noted explosions AND then called for the bomb squad.
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"Hello, Bomb Squad? Where are you?........We're down at the World Trade Center... What's that?... World Trade Center.... No, not a fire, a terrorist attack!....Turn on your TV .... Yes.... Yes. We think there may be bombs and were wondering if you could come down!....Um, well, as soon as you can? If you're not too busy...."
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Yeah, I figured you wouldn't be able to cite any sources.

So, in true Twoofer fashion, making stuff up is the best that you can do.

Typical.

I told you last time that I know that there are NEWS REPORTS of calls (as distinguished from actual calls) for the bomb squad. It'll be very interesting to see if any of those calls were from the same guys that were cited by MacQueen.

This source has the text of 3 (of 4) "dispatch transmissions", covering NYC's Manhattan dispatch from 8:46 thru 11:10 am on 9/11.

I searched all 3 for "bomb", "bomb squad"

I found 1 occurrence of "bomb"

pg. 10
"F. Marine 6, that plane was a large bomber -style green aircraft into the second tower, be advised."

Wow, one occurrence. And the info is wrong.

Zero occurrences of "bomb squad".

Looking for "explosion", I found 2 examples. (shown, with the dialog that followed)

D = "Dispatch"
F = "Firefighter" (or, in one case, a civilian)

pg 1 (part 1)
F. The World Trade Center tower No. 1 is on fire, the whole outside of the building. There was just a huge explosion.
D. Ten-four. All companies standby at this time. F. [inaudible] D. Ten-four.
F. Engine 1-0 to Manhattan. D. Engine 1-0. F. Engine 1-0, World Trade Center 10-60. Send every available ambulance, everything you've got, to the
World Trade Center now. D. Ten-four, 10-60 has been transmitted for the World Trade Center, 10-60 for the World Trade Center.
F. Three Truck to Manhattan. D. Three Truck. F. Civilian reports from up here a plane just crashed into the World Trade Center for your information. D. Ten-four, K. F. ... available.
F. Battalion 1 to Manhattan. D. Battalion 1, K. F. We have a number of floors on fire. It looked like the plane was aiming towards the building. Transmit
a third alarm throughout the staging area at Vescey and West Street. As the third alarm assignment goes into that area, the second alarm assignment report to the building, K.
D. Ten-four. Second alarm assignment report to the World Trade Center, second alarm assignment report to 1 World Trade Center.
F. Engine 1-0 to Manhattan. D. Engine 1-0, K. F. It appears an airplane crashed into the World Trade Center. D. Ten-four. Third alarm's been transmitted box 8087, third alarm transmitted box 8087 for 1 World
Trade Center.
___

pg 12 (part 2)
F. Tower 2 has had a major explosion and what appears to be a complete collapse surrounding the entire area.
D. Marine 6, 10-4. We were notified, K.
D. Manhattan to Field Comm., K. Manhattan to Field Comm. F. ... D. Attention 68 Engine, 35 Engine, 50 Engine, 64 Engine, 94 Engine, 83 Engine. Those units going to the
fifth alarm box 2-0-3-3, we've been advised the West Side Highway has been opened to emergency traffic. The West Side Highway is open to emergency traffic. Take that route going to West and Vescey. Acknowledge 68.
F. Ten-four. D. Thirty-five. Thirty-five engine. F. Ten-four, 35. D. Fifty. F. Five-zero, 10-4. D. Sixty-four. F. Six-four, 10-4. D. Ninety-four. F. Nine-four, 10-4. D. Eighty-three. F. Eight-three, 10-4.
D. Manhattan calling Field Comm., K. F. Engine 240 to Manhattan. D. Go ahead 240. F. There's been a major collapse to the tower. The command center ... everybody ... There was a major
collapse. I'm in my ... right now. D. Ten-four. We've notified them that there is a major collapse in the area, K. F. Everybody in the area had to run. I don't know if Field Comm. is available. F. Can anybody hear me? D. Go ahead. F. I'm a civilian. I'm trapped inside one of your fire trucks underneath ... D. Standby, there's ... close to you. F. I can't breathe much longer. Save me! I'm in the cab ... D. Transmitting a mayday. Where are you, K.
F. I just told you. It's north of the World Trade Center, there's the north ... bridge. I think it collapsed when the partial building just collapsed. I was on the street ... Please, help me!
F. ... I copy that. I'm going to go look for her. D. Ten-four.
D. Manhattan to Field Comm., urgent, K. F. I can barely breath. Please, send somebody. D. O.K., the person calling for help, listen to me, you need to calm down and relax. Standby, we do have
somebody on the way. You're to maintain air - get off the air. We do have somebody on the way over to you. You're to remain calm, 10-4?
F. It's falling on top of the truck. D. Ten-four. We do have people on the way over there.

___

No indication that Manhattan dispatch was sending in the bomb squad.
No indication from the Firefighters that they were requesting the bomb squad.
___


This site has 503 pdfs. Go to town. Download them & count the number of dispatches of the bomb squad.

I randomly sampled 10 for the existence of the word "bomb".

9 out of 10 had zero mention of "bomb" or "bomb squad".
LIEUTENANT JOHN MENDEZ
FIREFIGHTER RICHARD MASSA
FIREFIGHTER TYRONE JOHNSON
LIEUTENANT HOWARD HAHN
Captain David Fenton
CHIEF FRANK CRUTHERS
FIREFIGHTER EDWARD CACHIA
EMT GREGG BRADY
FIREFIGHTER ALBERT BARRY


1 out of 10 had one mention of "bomb", referring to bodies hitting the ground.

LIEUTENANT JOSEPH CHIAFARI
Visibly from where we were standing, I estimate that I probably saw about a hundred people jumping to their death. Some looked like they were in pairs, but most of them were singly, free falling, to such a degree that they were doing tumblesalts in the air and forcibly landing to the ground, or very impactly landing on top of that glass canopy, which seemed to be like almost like individual skylights that were -- they were breaking through. Very noticeably you could hear them like pounding, almost like a bomb going off, a small bomb, like paum, paum. And so there was a lot of glass breaking and a lot of hearts being shattered by watching that thing.

___

No indication of "bomb squad" from any of them.

493 more opportunities for you to find "bomb squad".

Get to it...
 
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Grizzly Bear said:
Hasn't ergo figured out yet that every time he calls someone a bedunker he's actually complimenting them? He just flat out admitted that an expert can say anything he wants and be credible just by giving his real name. If that's his definition of intelligence, I'll take my "bedunker" label with stride.
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Me too. I'd much rather be a debunker than a fool that falls for bunk.
 
tfk said:
From the person who sources nothing.
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:boggled:

3. They didn't clear people out, identify the area as a bomb threat, & call for the bomb squad.
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If you read the testimonies the explosions reported by ff's were heard by ff's inside the buildings that were already being evacuated or they were heard outside, either preceding or during the collapses. So your focus on a bomb squad protocol here, when they would already be on site and obviously in communication with rescue personnel, is a red herring.
 
ergo said:
I'm sure you would, but when do you think you'll actually be one?
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Well, aren't I one (a debunker) by default due to the false dichotomy doctrine of, us vs them, that you preach?

But it is true, to be honest, I'm not exactly a full on debunker as I mostly just observe, laugh and occasionally comment. I just have a weird fascination with learning about bizarre hustles or "woo", as they call it around here. Admittedly I don't really have the patience to do the tough job of arguing the same points and dealing with the same old songs and dances that brainwashed people recite over and over from some moron's website or youtube video.
 
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ergo said:
If you read the testimonies the explosions reported by ff's were heard by ff's inside the buildings that were already being evacuated or they were heard outside, either preceding or during the collapses. So your focus on a bomb squad protocol here, when they would already be on site and obviously in communication with rescue personnel, is a red herring.
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No, it's NOT a red herring at all.

The FDNY protocol would have been to call a 10-47 bomb code over the radio, and remove all personel from the immediate vacinity.

Scene safety is part of Firefighter 101. Bombs going off indicates an unsafe scene.

You can listen to the FD radio transmissions from that day here

*************
Warning to other posters here:

These audio recordings can bring on severe rage, and can lead to broken keyboards. I speak from personal experience. It also is a very emotional recording, so if you feel compelled to listen to it, you've been warned.

********************
 
ergo said:
I'm sure you would, but when do you think you'll actually be one?
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Following your logic a Geologist by title named "John Doe" can say the earth is flat, while an anonymous poster with no background in geology says the earth is a sphere. In this case you as the "truther" will leave the debate believing the earth is flat because only the name and title as a geologist is required to make the statement 100% accurate. Next time you chop my posts up into little pieces to make your insults, keep that in mind when I take that "bedunker" word bastardization as a complement.


triforcharity said:
No, it's NOT a red herring at all.

The FDNY protocol would have been to call a 10-47 bomb code over the radio, and remove all personel from the immediate vacinity.

Scene safety is part of Firefighter 101. Bombs going off indicates an unsafe scene.
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Considering what I've already read on fire safety from the firefighters point of view, explosions are not particularly uncommon nor unusual during a large scale fire. The entire premise of the TM's explosive "evidence" is based on these reports, suggesting that the mere existence of them is unusual. Not a single one has explain why they think this even after repeated questioning.
 
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Ahhh, we're getting somewhere.

ergo said:
:boggled:
If you read the testimonies the explosions reported by ff's were heard by ff's inside the buildings that were already being evacuated or they were heard outside, either preceding or during the collapses. So your focus on a bomb squad protocol here, when they would already be on site and obviously in communication with rescue personnel, is a red herring.
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Let's address the events that happened prior to collapse first.

"Evacuation of civilians" is only one of several steps (others being a) marking off danger zone, b) pulling back FFs, c) calling bomb squad & d) setting up hoses in preparation for fires initiated by explosion).

FFs did none of the above. Just like the famous "fireman on pay phone". No action whatsoever taken by them to indicate that they thought that they'd heard an explosive detonate.

The failure to call for the bomb squad for any explosion that a FF heard PRIOR TO the collapse initiation is not a red herring. It is prima facie proof that the FF did not think the explosion was the resullt of a bomb or explosive.

So we can rule out all of those "pre-collapse" explosions.

Lots heard. Many reported by FFs. None deemed to be bombs or explosives by those same FFs.
___

For the case of explosions heard at or after the collapse initiation, I agree that one can not draw the same conclusion. Any FF who heard explosions during this short interval was too busy running for his life to call the bomb squad.

Fortunately, we don't have to concern ourselves with the panicked impressions of fleeing for their lives FFs. The audio-video record proves unequivocally that there were no explosive detonations during this time.

I think we're done here.

At least, I'm done playing silly troll games.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
Hasn't ergo figured out yet that every time he calls someone a bedunker he's actually complimenting them? He just flat out admitted that an expert can say anything he wants and be credible just by giving his real name. If that's his definition of intelligence, I'll take my "bedunker" label with stride.
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He hasn't realized that bedunker means "intelligent critical person who takes note of evidence and does not spout crap on websites". I take it as compliment too.
 
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