Merged Core-led collapse and explosive demolition

Kevin Cosgrove

Well if there was this fantasy center of the core demolition "Boom" Kevin Cosgrove never mentioned it. And it certainly wasn't audible over his phone which was probaby the closest to the area in question.

 
Well if there was this fantasy center of the core demolition "Boom" Kevin Cosgrove never mentioned it. And it certainly wasn't audible over his phone which was probaby the closest to the area in question.


He hand waved that like 3 pages ago. Sickening, really.
 
Belief has nothing to do with it, and should not.

What intensity spike would be picked up on a directional microphone at ground level 100m from the base of the tower is a *boom* occurred in the middle of the core near the top of the tower ?
That would depend on the type and size of the source.

Wait.........I feel I've been here before. Yes, I remember. We were waiting for you to tell us what amount and type explosive was used.


Ball's (still) in your court.
 
4 Hijackings.
Multiple building collapses.
Thousands dead.

And **** **** is wondering why you can't hear a "boom" from 1,200' overhead.

Dude, don't sweat the small stuff.

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Edited, breach of rule 0; please keep the discussion civil and polite (ie. no name calling).
 
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That would depend on the type and size of the source.

Wait.........I feel I've been here before. Yes, I remember. We were waiting for you to tell us what amount and type explosive was used.
Your memory is a little fuzzy. You suggested an M-80 as a start point for simulation, but subsequently added that your girlfirend comes first.

That's fine, and only polite, she said ;)
 
Your memory is a little fuzzy. You suggested an M-80 as a start point for simulation, but subsequently added that your girlfirend comes first.

That's fine, and only polite, she said ;)
I believe an m-80 falls well under your threshold over background noise (considering it couldn't break the windows from 80+ feet core placement).

I did however say that if you could show a good reason for me to bother my engineer I would do so.

Ball in your court.
 
If the Truthers in this thread could refute this, they would have done so by now. They have been given ample time to do so.

It certainly is interesting and worth excerpting:

Arguing over who heard explosion-like noises, when they heard them, how loud they were or from what direction they came is a pointless exercise. This is not to imply that any witness should be ridiculed or dismissed; however, such subjective, highly interpretive statements do nothing to prove or disprove the presence of explosives. Simply put, there are countless causes of sharp, loud noises that have no relation to explosives.

The only scientifically legitimate way to ascertain if explosives were used is to cross-reference the fundamental characteristics of an explosive detonation with independent ground vibration data recorded near Ground Zero on 9/11. Fortunately, several seismographs were recording ground vibration that morning, and perhaps more fortunately, all available data is consistent and appears to paint a clear picture.

Seismographs at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, recorded the collapses of WTC 1, 2 and 7. This data was later released to the public and currently appears on their website. Additionally, on 9/11 Protec field technicians were utilizing portable field seismographs to continuously record ground vibrations on several construction sites in Manhattan and Brooklyn for liability purposes.
In all cases where seismographs detected the collapses, waveform readings indicate a single, gradually ascending and descending level of ground vibration during the event. At no point during 9/11 were sudden or independent vibration “spikes” documented by any seismograph, and we are unaware of any entity possessing such data.

This evidence makes a compelling argument against explosive demolition. The laws of physics dictate that any detonation powerful enough to defeat steel columns would have transferred excess energy through those same columns into the ground, and would certainly have been detected by at least one of the monitors that were sensitive enough to record the structural collapses. However, a detailed analysis of all available data reveals no presence of any unusual or abnormal vibration events

Thanks.
 
I believe I've stated repeatedly that the explosives used may not necessarily have been traditional CD cutter charges...

Not just you but many people have tried to make this claim and it has been proven wrong every time you and the rest of you make this statement!
 
It certainly is interesting and worth excerpting:
Arguing over who heard explosion-like noises, when they heard them, how loud they were or from what direction they came is a pointless exercise. This is not to imply that any witness should be ridiculed or dismissed; however, such subjective, highly interpretive statements do nothing to prove or disprove the presence of explosives. Simply put, there are countless causes of sharp, loud noises that have no relation to explosives.

The only scientifically legitimate way to ascertain if explosives were used is to cross-reference the fundamental characteristics of an explosive detonation with independent ground vibration data recorded near Ground Zero on 9/11. Fortunately, several seismographs were recording ground vibration that morning, and perhaps more fortunately, all available data is consistent and appears to paint a clear picture.

Seismographs at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, recorded the collapses of WTC 1, 2 and 7. This data was later released to the public and currently appears on their website. Additionally, on 9/11 Protec field technicians were utilizing portable field seismographs to continuously record ground vibrations on several construction sites in Manhattan and Brooklyn for liability purposes.
In all cases where seismographs detected the collapses, waveform readings indicate a single, gradually ascending and descending level of ground vibration during the event. At no point during 9/11 were sudden or independent vibration “spikes” documented by any seismograph, and we are unaware of any entity possessing such data.

This evidence makes a compelling argument against explosive demolition. The laws of physics dictate that any detonation powerful enough to defeat steel columns would have transferred excess energy through those same columns into the ground, and would certainly have been detected by at least one of the monitors that were sensitive enough to record the structural collapses. However, a detailed analysis of all available data reveals no presence of any unusual or abnormal vibration events
Thanks.

Yes, the seismic argument has indeed been used to refute the notion of CD. Although oddly enough, some truthers have been benighted enough to try to use the LDEO's seismographs to prove intentional demolition :rolleyes:. Those claims (to coin a new phrase) proved to be lulzworthy.

Here are some prior threads that have covered this topic; the earliest seems to be from 2006:
I want to highlight a pair of posts from this thread that deal with truthers misuse of the LDEO data in detail:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3680989#post3680989
and
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3682341#post3682341

Those are excellent treatments of the issue, and are very well worth reading to get a grip on the issue. Anyway, continued:
... and so on. So yes, your point is made about seismic data disproving the notion of intentional demolitions. This has been pointed out to truthers before. Unfortunately and undoubtedly, though, it will be used by one of them to supposedly "prove" intentional demolitions once again, as if the topic hadn't ever been covered before. It'll happen. Just hang around, and you'll see it.
 
Nice post slojoe and welcome to the forum.

just a minor comment:
...The only scientifically legitimate way to ascertain if explosives were used is to cross-reference the fundamental characteristics of an explosive detonation with independent ground vibration data recorded near Ground Zero on 9/11.....
(my emphasis.)
..that "only" is a bit unfortunate as you will probably agree in hindsight. There are many separate tracks of logic to disprove use of explosive demolition. Seismic data is certainly one of them but not the only one. :)
 
The plane impact at the Pentagon, which was at ground level, did not register a seismic signal.

Working backwards from a seismic record to determine the time of plane impacts on the towers allows you to fit the data with the events you're looking for. You would automatically attribute the spikes you see to the impacts. Why would the WTC planes hitting high up the buildings register a signal when the much closer to the ground Pentagon hit did not?

http://www.mgs.md.gov/esic/publications/download/911pentagon.pdf


Testimony from firefighter William Walsh:

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110442.PDF

A: What else I observed in the lobby was that – there’s basically two areas of elevators. There’s elevators off to the left-hand side which are really the express elevators. That would be the elevators that’s facing north. Then on the right-hand side there’s also elevators that are express elevators, and that would be facing south. In the center of these two elevator shafts would be elevators that go to the lower floors. They were blown off the hinges. That’s where the service elevator was also.

Q: Were these elevators that went to the upper floors? They weren’t side lobby elevators?

A: No, no, I’d say that they went through floors 30 and below.

Q: And they were blown off?

A: They were blown off the hinges, and you could see the shafts. The elevators on the extreme north side and the other express elevator on the extreme south side, they looked intact to me from what I could see, the doors anyway…


William Rodriguez

"... there were only one elevator shaft (the 50A car) that went all the way to B6, the operator was inside, Mr. Griffith, and he survived with a broken ankles. He should have died burnt since on this theory the ball of fire went down."


Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
... and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.

Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 6]
We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.

Timothy Burke -- Firefigter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 202]
But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53]
...we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 11]
You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down.

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]
... you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions.

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
... and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
.. there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]
It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion ...

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode.

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
... the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out.

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)
I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there.

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building.
.... As I said I thought the terrorists planted explosives somewhere in the building. That's how loud it was, crackling explosive, a wall.

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)
Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building.... exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
... I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes.

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off.

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running.

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]
As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]
When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down...

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [Battalion 31]
At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that.

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
[in the Marriott:] So we walk all the way up, no problem. Then we hear the explosion and debris falling. We were looking out of the windows and see body parts all over the place. It was scary. It was very sad.

We searched 14, 15, went in one lobby, we came out the other way, we went in one stairway, came up -- when we hit the 19th floor, something horrendous happened. It was like a bomb went off. We thought we were dead. The whole building shook. The brick coming out of -- the door to the hallway into the hotel blew off like somebody had thrown it all over the place. It shook all over the place. We were thrown on the floor. We looked inside the lobby after everything calmed down, and everything was collapsed. The building was still shaking and we're still hearing explosions going on everywhere, so we decided let's get out of here.

Kenneth Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above. I looked up, I saw smoke and flame and then I saw the top tower tilt, start to twist and lean.

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)
Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder...

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out.

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
... it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came.
 
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troofers always seem to believe that explosions = explosives, and loud noises = explosives. I guess they have never seen and heard a transformer explode of a steel beam fail.
... true.
911 truth movement, based on lies and delusions of CD are supported by a few fringe people who lack knowledge and refuse to think for themselves. Most will join reality when they gain knowledge and, as my Algebra teacher said, gain maturity. Not sure what maturity had to do with learning algebra, but it seems he was right. I matured real quick when faced with failure.
 
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Ergo's verbal datamined bs.
Woo Hoo stundie I mean Ergo. Way to go.

Datamine and fail to understand.

Hey.. here is the caracas tower fire (you know, the one you managed to step into a HUGE pile o fail over)

Read the following quote.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/741

During the early morning hours, explosions could be heard as flammable material ignited as well as the explosion of windows that were reached by the fire. The fire roared out of control for 17 hours, by which time all floors from the 34th to the top had been burned.


OMG... inside jobby job. It is amazing that there were explosions in a building on fire....


but we can fully expect him to dodge the fact that in office building fires THINGS EXPLODE, and exploding things does not mean it was EXPLOSIVES.

As for the idiotic statement about the OKC bombing... gee genius, there was ONE explosion which matched the sound, brissance and characteristics of an EXPLOSIVE. DUR...
 
If the Truthers in this thread could refute this, they would have done so by now. They have been given ample time to do so.

Yes, the seismic argument has indeed been used to refute the notion of CD. Although oddly enough, some truthers have been benighted enough to try to use the LDEO's seismographs to prove intentional demolition :rolleyes:. Those claims (to coin a new phrase) proved to be lulzworthy.

Here are some prior threads that have covered this topic; the earliest seems to be from 2006:

[Links removed in order to post]

... and so on. So yes, your point is made about seismic data disproving the notion of intentional demolitions. This has been pointed out to truthers before. Unfortunately and undoubtedly, though, it will be used by one of them to supposedly "prove" intentional demolitions once again, as if the topic hadn't ever been covered before. It'll happen. Just hang around, and you'll see it.

Thanks for the info ElMondoHummus.

I've followed this "debate" for some time now, and it's clear Truthers have no interest in the truth per se. They seek attention & legitimacy with truthiness and repetition, the same formula used by every huckster since the dawn of mass media to create false impressions in the minds of the uncritical and unwary.

Sadly, the only remedy is to repeat the refutation over and over, so it is readily available knowledge to a growing body of people who otherwise be unable to counter someone spouting Truther talking points.

I found this forum because it was used in just that way.
 
Nice post slojoe and welcome to the forum.

just a minor comment:
(my emphasis.)
..that "only" is a bit unfortunate as you will probably agree in hindsight. There are many separate tracks of logic to disprove use of explosive demolition. Seismic data is certainly one of them but not the only one. :)

Point taken, and I agree. I was excerpting from the Implosion World article referred to by Bell, but since I can't post links yet, that wasn't entirely clear.

Ah, the joys of newbiehood. :rolleyes:
 
Wow a huge list of quote mines! Similes man, similes.

Nicholas Borrillo -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) on 23rd floor of North Tower:
Then we heard a rumble. We heard it and we felt the whole building shake. It was like being on a train, being in an earthquake. A train is more like it, because with the train you hear the rumbling, and it kind of like moved you around in the hall.

Paul Curran -- Fire Patrolman (F.D.N.Y.) North Tower:
I went back and stood right in front of Eight World Trade Center right by the customs house, and the north tower was set right next to it. Not that much time went by, and all of a sudden the ground just started shaking. It felt like a train was running under my feet.

Joseph Fortis -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) T]he ground started shaking like a train was coming. You looked up, and I guess -- I don't know, it was one that came down first or two? Which one?

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47] At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118] You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

There are no such thing as similes. All quotes are literal.
 
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Secretly using a train to fell the buildings was a brilliant plan by the NWO, but it appears some first responders and firemen saw through the ruse. Curses!
 
So here we are, over 9 years since 9/11 and ther truthers are still arguing for hush-a-boom.
 

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