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Copyright Law

Ideas are different than the actual work, are they not?

Not really. Plagiarism doesn't have to be a literal exact copy of work. If someone, even accidentally, comes up with a similar story to one that is copyrighted - yoink. They have to settle and probably have to give the credit to whomever got to the copyright registry first. If a songwriter comes up, even accidentally, with the same melody used in part of another song he may not have even heard, he's out of luck. Crap, if you look at the case of Elastica being sued for ripping the riff of Connection off of Wire's Three Girl Rhumba, that's just two chords and a rhythm. Etc. It applies in your field, as well, I'm sure.

Imagine this: I and another guy both come up with the idea to tell a story about a man and his imaginary friend whose zany antics delight and their tale culminates in assassinating the anti-christ at the Academy Awards show. We both right [derp, shows you what a cold and writing hurriedly about copyRIGHT will do to my spelling, grammar and usage] our stories, independent of the each others knowledge, so we both have done the work, just using a similar story basis. Now, whichever one of us gets to our book registered FIRST also owns the work the other did. Sound fair to you?

You are getting distracted by things like style and genre, which no one owns. But things like plot and melody can be owned. Just look into the actual laws. I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is in visual art.
 
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I agree that International considerations will make it unlikely that the duration of copyright will be reduced unilaterally by the Uk government.

And given how hard it was to get the current agreement I don't think anyone will be messing with it any time soon.

I get paid a salary for my dull non-creative job. If I wish to bequeath soemthing to my decenedant then I have to make savings. Why should a copyright provide for grandchildren?

If however you created a table you could pass that on and it would never become public domain.

However you can see from this example how when (if) they do society will be enriched by works falling into the public domain.

Admittely 2 million a year is a drop in the ocean compared to gross government expendidture. However I feel the point is not entirely without merit.

One of the side effects of that 2 million a year is that the british libiary has picked up quite an impressive collection of books over the years.

Maybe you see it that way but I see it as lobbying government to steal from the public. Their investment was going to pay off anyway but eventually expire as per an agreement with public. What they did was manage to extend the time for which the public pays them to enjoy that artists work.

People frequesntly make investments gambleing on changes in the law. Depend on the price paid there may well have been a payoff below break even point if the law had not changed.
 
Not really. Plagiarism doesn't have to be a literal exact copy of work.

Plagiarism doesn't have to be illegal. Please don't use the term when you mean copyright violation.

If someone, even accidentally, comes up with a similar story to one that is copyrighted - yoink.

False. Copyright does not prevent independent invention. Of course you would have a hard time proveing independent invention.

They have to settle and probably have to give the credit to whomever got to the copyright registry first.

That hasn't been the case in the US for over a decade.

If a songwriter comes up, even accidentally, with the same melody used in part of another song he may not have even heard, he's out of luck.

False again see above.

Imagine this: I and another guy both come up with the idea to tell a story about a man and his imaginary friend whose zany antics delight and their tale culminates in assassinating the anti-christ at the Academy Awards show. We both right our stories, independent of the each others knowledge, so we both have done the work, just using a similar story basis. Now, whichever one of us gets to our book registered FIRST also owns the work the other did. Sound fair to you?

False. The legal situation is rather more complex. Now assumeing indepent invention neither could win a case against the other.

Assumeing one did copy the other the one who can show that they had it in a tangiable form first would win the case. Of course proveing that without registering is tricky.

You are getting distracted by things like style and genre, which no one owns. But things like plot and melody can be owned. Just look into the actual laws. I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is in visual art.

It is legaly imposible to copyright things like the speed of light and phyisical and chemical theories. However you can copyright the creative expression of those ideas.

With fiction it gets more complicated because it is harder to tell where the creative expression bit ends.
 
But if your job left a unique resource that could be used by your grandchildren, wouldn't you want it protected? Do you think it's fair that anyone could dip into the savings you hoped to leave for your children's children?

I would, but I'd also be biased. The artist is merely one person, and as a general thing, there are very many people who benefit from art whereas only one person actually makes the art, so a naive utilitarian calculus does suggest that the artist's desires may be canceled out.

Of course, the failures of communism have shown that you can't just naively say that the wants of the many outweigh the wants of the few, since unpleasant side effects start to kick in. However, there are several good reasons for limiting copyright, although not necessarily eliminating it entirely.

Ultimately, all works are derivative of something. Ideas don't simply pop out of thin air and elbow grease, but out of the various experiences the creator has experienced. (As well as the inborn characteristics of the creator itself.) Some of the experiences are copyrighted works, others are public domain works, others are from "nature," and an artist (or scientist) uses all of these things to pull together a creative work. Now, when copyright gets in the way, (and fair use isn't there to bail them out) they have to limit their ability to express themselves, and that's bad. Copyright necessarily limits free speech. Not in an unconstitutional way, (indeed, copyright has been in the United States for slightly longer than there has been a first amendment) but in a way that prevents society from it growing as freely as possible.

Additionally, there is something inherently harmless about copyright infringement. When I download a copyrighted work off the Internet, the only person tangibly effected (ignoring the bandwidth I use up) is me. Copyright laws limit people's freedoms not to prevent harm, but to promote the interests of some other people. I'm a lefty liberal, so I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with forcing people to help others, but it's certainly something that should be done in moderation. To extend copyright to the point where it allows artists to have money flowing in after they have been dead for over half a century is a bit much, I think.

There are valid reasons for copyright. For one, it is a "pretty good" method for compensating artists for their works. I do not doubt that a better system can be created, but we don't have one yet. I'll even go so far as to say that because art is something so dear to people, that it may be reasonable to have laws exist purely to prevent art from being "taken from them." But the current system, I think, needs to loosened up so as to get things into the public domain sooner and to allow more fair use in the meantime.
 
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Plagiarism doesn't have to be illegal. Please don't use the term when you mean copyright violation.



False. Copyright does not prevent independent invention. Of course you would have a hard time proveing independent invention.



That hasn't been the case in the US for over a decade.



False again see above.



False. The legal situation is rather more complex. Now assumeing indepent invention neither could win a case against the other.

Assumeing one did copy the other the one who can show that they had it in a tangiable form first would win the case. Of course proveing that without registering is tricky.



It is legaly imposible to copyright things like the speed of light and phyisical and chemical theories. However you can copyright the creative expression of those ideas.

With fiction it gets more complicated because it is harder to tell where the creative expression bit ends.


Do you have a link to something that can clear up this 'independent invention' issue for me?
 
But if your job left a unique resource that could be used by your grandchildren, wouldn't you want it protected? Do you think it's fair that anyone could dip into the savings you hoped to leave for your children's children?

Well in my case I work in IT so the chance of anything I work on still being in operation in my grandchildren's time is negligable. On the other hand the organisation I work for lobnies for improved retriement provisison. The changes to legislation that they campaign for benefits eveyone. We don't expect all those who so benefit to pay into a fund to be distibuted to our children and grandchildren. My father built flood defences. I don't expect money from everyone on a tidal plain each time there's a particularly high tide. My Grandfather was a guard at the british museum. I don't expect a fee to be paid to me each time someone enjoys one of the exhibits there.

For the record, most artists AREN'T swimming in cash and quite often the value in an artist's work or a writer's work doesn't reach full potential until that person dies.

And yet some artists are mega rich. Likewise most sportsmen aren't swimming in money. Only those who reach the top of their field. Perhaps it seems unfair to you that artist who arn't as recognised in their lifetime don't make as much money as those who are apprently better. Not to me. When they die they stop producing. Supply is resticted and by the laws of supply and demand thier work become more valuable. I see this. Nonetheless I don't see death as a positive career move. Perhaps, to boot, their works are cited as an influence on subsequent artists thus increasing interest and therefore demand. This however can happen at any time whether dead or alive.

As sea levels rise my father's flood defences are increasing in value. What's the difference?

Say for instance you bought a parcel of land that was relatively useless and saved it for years to pass it onto your children. When your children's children grew to be adults they found that a land developer was going to build exclusive mansions on that land and your grandchildren could sell it at a great profit; do you think that artists, musicians and writers should share in that profit?

The difference between land and art is simple. If the developer wants to build on my land then I no longer have the land. I can't sell it again to another developer. If a film producer wants to develop my novel into a screenplay then I still have my novel and if another developer want to tadapt it for the stage then I can sell it again. If a readers wants to read it I can still sell it over and over to them. If one of those readers or developers doesn't pay me I still have my novel and can still sell it again and again. I am not in anyway harmed by their copyright infringement. You can talk about lost revenue but that's not money I earned and was then taken away from me - it's money that I never earned that the current law says I'm entitled to. The copyright infringement is clearly legally wrong but it is harder to see how it is morally wrong as I'm not really harmed by it.

Would you be so willing to split the money with people that had absolutely nothing to do with your foresight and your hopes that the land you worked hard to pay for (and maintain) would someday be worth a great deal of money?

If bought the land then no. However if I leased it from the public then at the end of the lease period I'd be expected to vacate.

Imagine if I bred a superior grain and in order to reward me the public chose to give me a 50 year lease on some land to produce this grain.

If instead of relinquishing my 50 year lease I and a group of other influential 50 year lease holders lobbied parliament to increase the duration of such leases to 70 years then surely that would be wrong.
 
Well in my case I work in IT so the chance of anything I work on still being in operation in my grandchildren's time is negligable. On the other hand the organisation I work for lobnies for improved retriement provisison. The changes to legislation that they campaign for benefits eveyone. We don't expect all those who so benefit to pay into a fund to be distibuted to our children and grandchildren. My father built flood defences. I don't expect money from everyone on a tidal plain each time there's a particularly high tide. My Grandfather was a guard at the british museum. I don't expect a fee to be paid to me each time someone enjoys one of the exhibits there.

I can understand your train of thought. My grandfather was a construction laborer, my grandmother worked for 65 years in a laundry, my mother was a maid so the only thing they could pass onto me personally was the hopes of a college education.

Having obtained that education, I credit their difficult experiences and their lifelong determination (as well as my veteran's benefits) for my education. They left me the dreams of "something better" which certainly has no monetary value, however I am always reminded of their sacrifices and their hopes.

And yet some artists are mega rich. Likewise most sportsmen aren't swimming in money. Only those who reach the top of their field. Perhaps it seems unfair to you that artist who arn't as recognised in their lifetime don't make as much money as those who are apprently better. Not to me. When they die they stop producing. Supply is resticted and by the laws of supply and demand thier work become more valuable. I see this. Nonetheless I don't see death as a positive career move. Perhaps, to boot, their works are cited as an influence on subsequent artists thus increasing interest and therefore demand. This however can happen at any time whether dead or alive.

Certainly some artists are "mega-rich," but that's not the norm, especially in the field of "fine art." It's a shame that you see people in general as worthwhile only when they are alive and "producing." The value in gold is in its rarity. You can't blame the artists for the fact that their death is often the "career move" that gives value to their art. That is the function of businessmen who want to capitalize on something they see as having value and knowing that nothing like it will ever be produced again.


As sea levels rise my father's flood defences are increasing in value. What's the difference?

Did your father engineer the flood defenses or merely work as a laborer to build them? It makes a difference as any official documents pertaining to said flood defenses will show. If he was the engineer, there are documents what will give him credit for his work that no other engineer can lay claim to - and that is for the life of the flood defenses (not merely 70 years beyond his death).


The difference between land and art is simple. If the developer wants to build on my land then I no longer have the land. I can't sell it again to another developer. If a film producer wants to develop my novel into a screenplay then I still have my novel and if another developer want to tadapt it for the stage then I can sell it again. If a readers wants to read it I can still sell it over and over to them. If one of those readers or developers doesn't pay me I still have my novel and can still sell it again and again. I am not in anyway harmed by their copyright infringement. You can talk about lost revenue but that's not money I earned and was then taken away from me - it's money that I never earned that the current law says I'm entitled to. The copyright infringement is clearly legally wrong but it is harder to see how it is morally wrong as I'm not really harmed by it.

I think that's where you most mistaken, especially with regards to fine art (a painting or sculpture). Certainly a piece of literature can be sold for various rights (most magazine articles fall into this category as well as poetry and novels). First publication rights can be sold, as can first book rights (in the case of a novel), but a traditional visual artist doesn't have that luxury. When he sells his painting it is usually outright and for a onetime fee. The only thing he retains (via copyright law) is the right to have that particular work attributed to him. Sometimes he is given a royalty fee when the art is reproduced in print, but it's negligible compared to the original price. Keep in mind that most fine art is rarely reproduced in a manner that will bring a steady flow of finances for the artist.


If bought the land then no. However if I leased it from the public then at the end of the lease period I'd be expected to vacate.

There is the difference then, no? The artist essentially "buys" the land (or creates the art) that you want him to give up rights to. It is his property and his creation that you believe others who had nothing to do with its creation should be allowed to share. Creative, original and unique works of art aren't "leased" and copyright laws protect the artist from charlatans claiming the work is theirs. As for the monetary gains from a work of art, it's often the businessmen (or collector) who own the artwork that will scream, "copyright infringement" when the work is duplicated without permission.


Imagine if I bred a superior grain and in order to reward me the public chose to give me a 50 year lease on some land to produce this grain.

But, you could, as a botanist creating a new hybrid, plant (pun intended) your name on that grain and sell it to a distribution company, couldn't you? The company would "own" the right to produce that grain, but you'd retain the right to call it your creation. Whatever royalties you could glean from the company that bought the original seeds or plant would be between you and the company you sold it to. Do you feel it would be ethical for that company to claim they created that grain only ten years after you first allowed them to mass-produce it?


If instead of relinquishing my 50 year lease I and a group of other influential 50 year lease holders lobbied parliament to increase the duration of such leases to 70 years then surely that would be wrong.

Again, I don't know exactly what is going on regarding copyright law in the UK, but as an artist, I feel that my family has a right to whatever royalties they can get for roughly 70 years after my death.
 
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Well in my case I work in IT so the chance of anything I work on still being in operation in my grandchildren's time is negligable.

Judgeing by how long some code has currently hung around I would not bet on it.

My father built flood defences. I don't expect money from everyone on a tidal plain each time there's a particularly high tide. My Grandfather was a guard at the british museum. I don't expect a fee to be paid to me each time someone enjoys one of the exhibits there.[/qupte]

Both of those are work for hire.

If your father had owned the flood defences you pretty much could charge every time it prevented flooding (by threatening say to blow it up if people didn't pay up or by getting a contract agreeing to such a payment deal when it was built).

Nonetheless I don't see death as a positive career move.

There would really depend on the field you work in.

The difference between land and art is simple. If the developer wants to build on my land then I no longer have the land.

You could lease it to him rather than sell.

I can't sell it again to another developer.

Depends on the deal you came to with the first one.

If a film producer wants to develop my novel into a screenplay then I still have my novel and if another developer want to tadapt it for the stage then I can sell it again.

Doubtful since it likely the film company would buy the exclusive rights to any form of adaption.

Imagine if I bred a superior grain and in order to reward me the public chose to give me a 50 year lease on some land to produce this grain.

If instead of relinquishing my 50 year lease I and a group of other influential 50 year lease holders lobbied parliament to increase the duration of such leases to 70 years then surely that would be wrong.

Why?
 
Again, I don't know exactly what is going on regarding copyright law in the UK, but as an artist, I feel that my family has a right to whatever royalties they can get for roughly 70 years after my death.

The flip side being is that I have the right to find and exploit any loophole I can find to avoid paying those royalties. Up to and includeing changing the law if I can.

More likely I would just create something that performed function I required just as well or better.
 
THAT'S THE SPIRIT! :)

Depends on who you ask. There have been professional photographers who complained about flickr and wikimedia commons (although their real gripe was with getty, corbis and Jubiter media). The various companies that used to specialise in compileing software did not react too well to the GNU Compiler Collection (given that it destoryed their bussiness that is hardly unexpected though).
 
Depends on who you ask. There have been professional photographers who complained about flickr and wikimedia commons (although their real gripe was with getty, corbis and Jubiter media). The various companies that used to specialise in compileing software did not react too well to the GNU Compiler Collection (given that it destoryed their bussiness that is hardly unexpected though).

Photographers have quite a different bit of concerns as the most often photographed locations are fairly common among people with cameras. That's not taking one single thing away from accomplished photographers who can turn out a much better product than the normal Joe-with-a-camera, but I would suspect that the protection of their particular work requires an identifying mark of some sort in order to prove that the commonly photographed location is (or isn't) their work.

We have a professional photographer on the forum, I'll try to lure him into the thread. I think he could bring quite a bit of experience regarding copyrights as they pertain to photographers. :)
 
We have a professional photographer on the forum, I'll try to lure him into the thread. I think he could bring quite a bit of experience regarding copyrights as they pertain to photographers. :)

Mephisto means me.:) My experience is anecdotal, family stuff. My dad is 85, and an accomplished bygone-era Time/Life photographer. He has a few dozen "important" shots, mostly from the 1950's-'70's, like the Nixon/Kennedy debates, the Chicago 1968 Riots, the Rat Pack in Vegas, that individuals and publications seem to want over and over.

A photo he took of author, Nelson Algren playing pool, appeared in a magazine. Soon after, another magazine, like the New Yorker, published an artist's sketch similar to his photo. He proved they copied it, so he got paid after hiring a lawyer. Once he sent some of his images of the Supremes he'd shot in the early '60's in Chicago to someone representing Diana Ross for her autobiaographyin the '90's. They wanted to "take a look at the photos first." But then a dozen appear in her book, and my dad got a settlement. The legal way is that they pay him an agreed amount in advance, say, $300 a shot for one-time use with photo caption. So of course he got more money the way it turned out. He still owns the images and can resell them in galleries, or to other publications.

A new wrinkle is that if, say, I attach a Diana Ross shot to this post, and it gets around and appears a zillion times online, my dad would lose legal traction and the image, little by little, would enter public domain. A family attorney has warned him to be less casual with this. Of course, if he makes an enlargement of such an image in his darkroom, then signs it, it still has a one-of-a-kind value. His prints that seem most valuable in galleries are the B&W enlargements stamped "Time/Life" on the back, from the '60's, as they are finite, authenticated, and, yes, his property.

I live in Seattle and worked a summer job at the Space Needle. I was told that all images of the Space Needle were copyrighted. This seems farfetched. I would speculate that if I took my avatar, a shot I took of the Needle ;) and put it on a t-shirt or ash tray and tried to sell them at the market, or to a coffee shop, The Man might have a legit right to prevent me from making a profit on the image of the Needle. As it is part of the skyline, a general wide-angle shot of the city would I guess be kosher.
 
I live in Seattle and worked a summer job at the Space Needle. I was told that all images of the Space Needle were copyrighted. This seems farfetched. I would speculate that if I took my avatar, a shot I took of the Needle ;) and put it on a t-shirt or ash tray and tried to sell them at the market, or to a coffee shop, The Man might have a legit right to prevent me from making a profit on the image of the Needle. As it is part of the skyline, a general wide-angle shot of the city would I guess be kosher.

Heh tricky would be quite an interesting case. Built in 1962 so the changes in the early 90s have no effect. Is the space needle a sculpture or a building. If the latter I can't see where their copyright claiming is comeing from if the former then yes their could be a claim.

This is an issue I run into more often with european law rather than US law photos of the Effile tower at night (not during the day) and the Atomium are considered dirivative works of those objects thus publishing them without permission would be considered a copyvio (unless fair use and or fair dealing kicked in).

Note in this case showing holiday snaps to your friends and family may well count as publishing. On top of that the Atomium people have been known to inforce the copyright.
 
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Heh tricky would be quite an interesting case. Built in 1962 so the changes in the early 90s have no effect. Is the space needle a sculpture or a building. If the latter I can't see where their copyright claiming is comeing from if the former then yes their could be a claim.

This is an issue I run into more often with european law rather than US law photos of the Effile tower at night (not during the day) and the Atomium are considered dirivative works of those objects thus publishing them without permission would be considered a copyvio (unless fair use and or fair dealing kicked in).

Note in this case showing holiday snaps to your friends and family may well count as publishing. On top of that the Atomium people have been known to inforce the copyright.

I was told that the Seattle Space Needle is privately-owned, and so it falls into a certain catagory. But the Rockefeller Center in NYC is/was owned by that family. I suppose they would have had certain exclusive rights to images on postcards of their ice rink and that gold statue thinggy.
 
It is one of the differences between patent and copyright. Thus it gets brought up when people talk about software patents or for some other reason compareing the two system. for example:

http://www.jacobowitz.com/arts-copyright.htm

I can't imagine how this ever plays out. Basically, if one copyright owner is bigger and more well known, I see the courts ruling going in their favor, every time. Are there actually cases of this that have ruled both people own independent creations?
 
I can't imagine how this ever plays out. Basically, if one copyright owner is bigger and more well known, I see the courts ruling going in their favor, every time. Are there actually cases of this that have ruled both people own independent creations?



I don't know about US copyright law, but under international law, which is what we follow in New Zealand, in order to prosecute for copyright infringement you have to actually prove the person doing the copying was exposed to the original material before producing their own.

If, for example, I went and lived in the mountains for ten years and wrote a film, having no contact with the outside world during this time, and came back to discover a film studio had made a film just like mine, neither of us would be in breach of copyright.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Indeed, the phenomena of multiple films of the same nature being made at the same time is well enough recognised in Hollywood that it is specifically written into contractual agreements. Hence why you often get two or more very similar films being released at the same time.

Of course large corporations have an unfair advantage because it's much easier to demonstrate that an unknown filmmaker was exposed to a big hollywood film than it is that a big-name Hollywood film producer knew about the latest script from an unknown filmmaker in Alice Springs, Australia.

-Gumboot
 
Doubtful since it likely the film company would buy the exclusive rights to any form of adaption.



You would be a very silly writer if you sold a film company the copyright to your book.

Generally, if you have a brain, you OPTION the film and associated merchandising licensing rights, and that's it.

If they make a film within the period determined by the option agreement, well and good - they own the film and associated merchandising rights as an independent copyright. If they don't make it the license lapses and you can offer it to someone else.

The thing is, the copyright holder has the exclusive right to make or authorise derivatives of the work - that is adapt it. So unless the film company actually purchases the copyright to the BOOK (rather than a license to adapt the book into a film) the previous copyright owner (be that the author or the publisher) retains the exclusive right to authorise derivative works. Thus they can license the film rights to a film company and independently license stage adaption rights to someone else.

-Gumboot
 
A photo he took of author, Nelson Algren playing pool, appeared in a magazine. Soon after, another magazine, like the New Yorker, published an artist's sketch similar to his photo. He proved they copied it, so he got paid after hiring a lawyer.

This is evidence of the fact that copyright laws are most often broken by people they're supposed to protect - artists.

Fair use is always a vague subject when it comes to artists using someone else's work, and I believe that unless something is OBVIOUSLY in the public domain I personally don't use it.

I mentioned airbrush artists using sports logos or mascots and the fact that team lawyers often "hunt" for these artists. It's too bad that the average artist doesn't have someone similar protecting original work.

The artist providing the sketch for the New Yorker should have known that the photograph taken by Steverino's father was copyrighted, but he likely thought there was a slim chance that the photographer would run into the sketch, or that the New Yorker would absorb the legal fees stemming from the infringement. One thing most artists DON'T understand is they THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE for any copyright infringement (even for contracted work-for-hire) and will often stand alone when it comes to legal proceedings.
 

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