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Controlled demolition without explosives

In the BZ scenario, all of the kinetic energy of the WTC top can potentially be used to buckle column segments in the topmost floor of the WTC bottom.

In the BZ analysis of their scenario. The scenario is an axial impact. What I'm pointing out is that you haven't presented any other impact scenario which is more favourable to collapse arrest. You're disputing the analysis of the response of the structure to the BZ scenario, which is a reasonable line of enquiry. I'm simply asking that you stop representing it as something that it isn't.

I'll leave it to others with more engineering expertise to discuss (1) and (2), but would point out that failure of the structure at any weak point would prevent any transfer of elastic strain energy beyond the point of failure. However, your reason (3) is invalid.

3) There is no accounting in BZ for Kinetic Energy imparted to the WTC bottom, while in reality, in an axial strike, the column lengths bounded by the elastic wave fronts described in 1) and 2) would undergo a macroscopic acceleration, hence they would have a kinetic energy imparted to them. Where does this Kinetic Energy come from? It comes from the Kinetic Energy of the top. (I.e., the kinetic energy that the top had before impact.)

Kinetic energy of the lower block is not an energy sink if the collapse is arrested. The movement downwards of the lower block has to stop for collapse to arrest, and this is achieved by converting the kinetic energy into strain energy. It's a two-stage process, in which initially the kinetic energy of the upper block is transferred into kinetic energy in the lower block, and subsequently the kinetic energy of both is transferred into strain energy of the spring. Therefore, there is no need to consider kinetic energy of the lower block in determining whether the collapse is arrested; by definition, if energy is transferred into kinetic energy of the lower block and is not converted to some other form, then the collapse has not been arrested.

It's also worth noting that the boundary conditions for the upper and lower block are very different, in that the upper block is free to move at the top end whereas the lower is fixed at the bottom end. Force on the upper block can therefore potentially decelerate it, whereas any kinetic energy imparted to the lower block must then be entirely transferred into strain energy. Overall, it can't be valid to treat the two blocks as having identical responses.

Dave
 
Joules! Grab my jacket and driving gloves. We're going for a ride!

Eureka!


Oh I see what metamars is saying. if the top and bottom were a pair of billiard balls. ball "A" which is moving/has kinetic energy should bounce off ball "B" which is stationary and fixed to the ground instead of transferring that energy into work in the form of crushing. Oh I get it now.:rolleyes: And I also see what Heiwa was trying to explain to the children:rolleyes:




Also found a new excuse when my wife calls me lazy. I'm not lazy. I have inertia!
 
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In the BZ analysis of their scenario. The scenario is an axial impact. What I'm pointing out is that you haven't presented any other impact scenario which is more favourable to collapse arrest. You're disputing the analysis of the response of the structure to the BZ scenario, which is a reasonable line of enquiry. I'm simply asking that you stop representing it as something that it isn't.

So you are saying that the "scenario" is that of an axial impact, rather than that of an axial impact where the top is modeled as a rigid body (amongst many other assumptions, explicit and implicit). Is this correct?

If this is what you mean, are you using the word "scenario" in some precise manner that physicists would understand? Or are you essentially making much ado about nothing, by quibbling about a word whose English-language ambiguity allows one leeway to make interpretations according to one's desire?

When I use the word "scenario", I am talking not just about a broad-brush stroke description, such as "top hits bottom, axially". I am talking about the specifics that BZ actually assumed in their analysis, such as "top was a rigid body". If I am using the word incorrectly, in a manner that physicists would agree is incorrect, please explain fully what the scientifically correct usage of the word "scenario" is.



I'll leave it to others with more engineering expertise to discuss (1) and (2), but would point out that failure of the structure at any weak point would prevent any transfer of elastic strain energy beyond the point of failure.

The word "failure" here is problematic. Even if the elastic limit is surpassed, complete structural failure need not follow. See, e.g., the work of Ari-Gur, et. al. Plastic flow begins after a certain lag time, and propagates at about 500 m/s in steel. Whether this leads to complete structural failure would depend on the details of the problem.


However, your reason (3) is invalid.

Kinetic energy of the lower block is not an energy sink if the collapse is arrested.

Well, it's an energy sink in terms of energy available to cause buckling in the the topmost story of the WTC base.

The movement downwards of the lower block has to stop for collapse to arrest, and this is achieved by converting the kinetic energy into strain energy. It's a two-stage process, in which initially the kinetic energy of the upper block is transferred into kinetic energy in the lower block, and subsequently the kinetic energy of both is transferred into strain energy of the spring.

No, this is too simple. The kinetic energy of the upper block get converted to both strain energy of the upper and lower blocks, as well as kinetic energy of the lower block. Even this is too simple a description, as the kinetic energy of "the" lower block is a function of time and space. Parts of it can be in motion, while other parts of it can be at rest. (This is not obvious from just looking at Goldsmith (c), but you can grok it by looking at Goldsmith (a)). Furthermore, as you can see in (c), at t = 5 L1 / 2C0, the velocity of the rod fixed at one end has reversed.


The first instance shown (t = L1/2c0) when velocity of the impacted rod is zero, has a stress well below its maximum stress (at t = 2L1/c0). At this time of maximum stress in the impacted rod, the velocity is also zero, but notice that this stress is less than the maximum stress in the impacting rod. Also notice that at this time, the impacting rod has reversed direction. It has kinetic energy, but not the sort that's going to contribute to peak stress in the other rod during this phase of it's motion :-) In such a collision, if the yield stress is achieved, it will occur in the impacting rod, not the impacted rod (we're only shown graphs for a few values of t, so maybe I'm drawing the wrong conclusion, but I doubt it.)

So, strictly speaking, you can say that for a sub time-interval of the collision, my complaint about BZ ignoring the energy sink represented by the kinetic energy of the base is invalid, but you cannot say that this is generally the case throughout the collision. The situation is dynamic and somewhat complicated, and ultimately you have to rely on mathematical descriptions to pin down peak stress. In fact, Kinetic energy of the top in a gravity driven collapse will be converted back and forth between kinetic energy and elastic strain energy of the top and bottom. In terms of comparing to BZ, the point of computing this is to determine the peak stress, at any point of the base, at any time.

Therefore, there is no need to consider kinetic energy of the lower block in determining whether the collapse is arrested; by definition, if energy is transferred into kinetic energy of the lower block and is not converted to some other form, then the collapse has not been arrested.

See above.

It's also worth noting that the boundary conditions for the upper and lower block are very different, in that the upper block is free to move at the top end whereas the lower is fixed at the bottom end. Force on the upper block can therefore potentially decelerate it, whereas any kinetic energy imparted to the lower block must then be entirely transferred into strain energy. Overall, it can't be valid to treat the two blocks as having identical responses.

Dave

Goldsmith's (c) scenario is for the problem of the impacted rod being fixed at one end. Perhaps you're looking at (a), instead?

===================

BTW, in (c), I just noticed that at t = 3L1/2c0, the non-zero velocity (= - 1/2 v1,0) is not graphed. Also, the velocity plot for t = 5L1/2c0 doesn't match the velocity drawings at the top, either.
 
One truther page had a add for a silent "explosive" for stone quarries. Is was not foam but some liquid that solified and then expanded.
Good luck using it on steel beams.

One can set up a non-explosive, gravity-driven, controlled demolition quite easily. First the structure is weakened, then a trigger is applied. No reason that trigger has to be explosives. One can apply an eccentric load through cables, for instance.
Sound just like having a rope on a tree to tip it after you cut it.:)
 
One can set up a non-explosive, gravity-driven, controlled demolition quite easily. First the structure is weakened, then a trigger is applied. No reason that trigger has to be explosives. One can apply an eccentric load through cables, for instance.



Just as the late great Fred Dibnah ably demonstrated multiple times on UK TV.

It's all here, tall structure/damage/fire/collapse. Unarguably controlled demolition , not even one teensey-weensey squib.

End of story.





BV
 
That chimney couldn't possibly have been a controlled demolition. Where was the "KABOOM!"?
 
So you are saying that the "scenario" is that of an axial impact, rather than that of an axial impact where the top is modeled as a rigid body (amongst many other assumptions, explicit and implicit). Is this correct?

If this is what you mean, are you using the word "scenario" in some precise manner that physicists would understand? Or are you essentially making much ado about nothing, by quibbling about a word whose English-language ambiguity allows one leeway to make interpretations according to one's desire?

I would argue that you're the one twisting semantics to manufacture as many claims that Bazant and Zhou are incorrect as you can. Axial impact with no tilt is a scenario, and is correctly identified by Bazant and Zhou as the scenario most optimistic to survival. A rigid top is one of the assumptions used to analyse that scenario. If you question Bazant and Zhou's analysis of the scenario, then that's a valid line of enquiry. What you appear to be claiming that they have incorrectly identified that axial impact is most optimistic to survival.

Can you please just clarify, then, that you agree that the scenario - in the most general sense of the word - of axial symmetric impact of the upper block is more optimistic to survival than oblique or asymmetrical impact? If so, then we can maybe move on.

The word "failure" here is problematic. Even if the elastic limit is surpassed, complete structural failure need not follow. See, e.g., the work of Ari-Gur, et. al. Plastic flow begins after a certain lag time, and propagates at about 500 m/s in steel. Whether this leads to complete structural failure would depend on the details of the problem.

Then this needs to be treated rigorously in your full analysis.

Well, it's an energy sink in terms of energy available to cause buckling in the the topmost story of the WTC base.

No, because the energy is transferred into elastic or inelastic buckling, so it's no longer in the form of kinetic energy. Quite simply, if you treat kinetic energy as a sink - that is to say, an energy term that can be removed from the further treatment of the structure - then something is still moving. If something is still moving, the collapse has not arrested.

No, this is too simple. The kinetic energy of the upper block get converted to both strain energy of the upper and lower blocks, as well as kinetic energy of the lower block. Even this is too simple a description, as the kinetic energy of "the" lower block is a function of time and space. Parts of it can be in motion, while other parts of it can be at rest.

You're essentially talking about vibrational modes here. You can take kinetic energy completely out of the picture if you simply consider elastic and inelastic strain energy at maximum deformation. For elastic deformation this is equivalent to calculating the energy in a vibrational mode, because at maximum deformation the kinetic energy is zero. For inelastic deformation the kinetic energy is absorbed, so in a quasi-static approximation there is again no need to consider kinetic energy. I suspect you can simplify all your calculations by looking at a quasi-static approximation and determining whether there's an energy excess; if you can't find a static solution with no energy excess, then you've proved that collapse propagates. You could try modelling the complete elastic, inelastic and kinetic behaviour of every part of the structure in the time domain for complete rigour, but I suspect your model would never converge.

And if, finally, you find that the axial impact scenario with your modified assumptions has a solution in which collapse is arrested, all you've proven is that axial impact is not a good model of the actual collapse, which we already know. You'll then have to start examining less optimistic scenarios. If you find that a realistic model of the collapse, with off-axial impacts, column-on-floor impacts, perimeter column disconnections at bolted joints, funnelling of debris, and all the other phenomena that were actually observed, can still be shown rigorously not to collapse, then you would still be a long way from providing any evidence that the collapse was assisted by other means. We would still have the possibility that the structure of the WTC was not constructed to specifications, or that there were additional features of the collapse that weren't fully understood.

Good luck with your calculations, but I suspect that what you're trying to do may require more centuries of effort than you have available to devote to it.

Dave
 
Expanding foam is flammable... it goes away in the Pile. Disappearing evidence!!1!

The exact characteristics of aerogel nano thermite. Remember the application of new "fireproofing" just before the collapse!!!
 
Ultimately, I want to solve a more realist axial strike scenario, while still modeling as a single column line. That means variable mass at every h, and variable spring constant every h, also, and gravity loading. However, even to do that, I need to learn more theory. I'm not sure, but as an interim step, I think that if I relearn my LaGrangian analysis and model each column length as a spring, this problem would be tractable analytically and numerically on my PC, and provide a reasonable approximation. Ultimately, though, I'd like to solve using coupled wave equations with non-column masses modeled as rigid, considered attached every h.

Ultimately, your line of reasoning states that the Balzac Tower should still be standing with two compressed floors.
 
Getting back to the subject of the thread, there are two things that strike me about this video.

First of all, it appears that crush down predominates over crush up in the early stages of collapse. Since the two blocks appear of similar size, the major difference between them seems to be that the falling block is moving freely whereas the base of the lower block is fixed, so the upper block may experience deceleration whereas the lower can only be crushed. This tends to support Bazant's choice of collapse model.

Secondly, a part of a structure is falling through another part of the same structure, destroying both as a result, without the aid of explosives. This tends to invalidate by experiment virtually every hypothesis Heiwa has ever advanced.

Dave
 
Where can I find a description of the mechanics of how this was done? How did they initiate the actual collapse of the columns on the demolition floors?
 
Where can I find a description of the mechanics of how this was done? How did they initiate the actual collapse of the columns on the demolition floors?

You expect to find any coherent teory on that, from thruthers?:)
 
You expect to find any coherent teory on that, from thruthers?:)

I think leftysergeant was referring to getting the details on the Balzac CD, but I could be wrong. I heard, fourth or fifth hand, that it was hydraulically initiated, and that was from a 'truther' so there's the answer, if only anecdotal.

PS - Toke, tell Marx that my rent is due.
 
PS - Toke, tell Marx that my rent is due.
You may not belive it, but in denmark there are people that get public support on their rent. The ones with low income.
 
Probably not.

I did, once, propose a covert non-explosive demolition using vast quantities of expanding foam, but nobody took me up on it. Pity. [/derail]

Hmmmm... just who did you propose this sinister covert plan to boy genius and how do you know they didn't take you up on it? Do you really know who you just might be giving ideas to? Hmmmmm do you?

Yes that's a joke.
 
I would argue that you're the one twisting semantics to manufacture as many claims that Bazant and Zhou are incorrect as you can. Axial impact with no tilt is a scenario, and is correctly identified by Bazant and Zhou as the scenario most optimistic to survival. A rigid top is one of the assumptions used to analyse that scenario. If you question Bazant and Zhou's analysis of the scenario, then that's a valid line of enquiry. What you appear to be claiming that they have incorrectly identified that axial impact is most optimistic to survival.

Can you please just clarify, then, that you agree that the scenario - in the most general sense of the word - of axial symmetric impact of the upper block is more optimistic to survival than oblique or asymmetrical impact? If so, then we can maybe move on.



Then this needs to be treated rigorously in your full analysis.



No, because the energy is transferred into elastic or inelastic buckling, so it's no longer in the form of kinetic energy. Quite simply, if you treat kinetic energy as a sink - that is to say, an energy term that can be removed from the further treatment of the structure - then something is still moving. If something is still moving, the collapse has not arrested.



You're essentially talking about vibrational modes here. You can take kinetic energy completely out of the picture if you simply consider elastic and inelastic strain energy at maximum deformation. For elastic deformation this is equivalent to calculating the energy in a vibrational mode, because at maximum deformation the kinetic energy is zero. For inelastic deformation the kinetic energy is absorbed, so in a quasi-static approximation there is again no need to consider kinetic energy. I suspect you can simplify all your calculations by looking at a quasi-static approximation and determining whether there's an energy excess; if you can't find a static solution with no energy excess, then you've proved that collapse propagates. You could try modelling the complete elastic, inelastic and kinetic behaviour of every part of the structure in the time domain for complete rigour, but I suspect your model would never converge.

And if, finally, you find that the axial impact scenario with your modified assumptions has a solution in which collapse is arrested, all you've proven is that axial impact is not a good model of the actual collapse, which we already know. You'll then have to start examining less optimistic scenarios. If you find that a realistic model of the collapse, with off-axial impacts, column-on-floor impacts, perimeter column disconnections at bolted joints, funnelling of debris, and all the other phenomena that were actually observed, can still be shown rigorously not to collapse, then you would still be a long way from providing any evidence that the collapse was assisted by other means. We would still have the possibility that the structure of the WTC was not constructed to specifications, or that there were additional features of the collapse that weren't fully understood.

Good luck with your calculations, but I suspect that what you're trying to do may require more centuries of effort than you have available to devote to it.

Dave


I don't think the calculations are as strenuous as you implying. Granted there are a lot of floors, we would only be looking for the point of failure and see which beams on the floor were rotationally fixed and translation free vs. which ones were sheared or fractured past plasticity. I'm not aware how far down the buckling was occurring during the collapse though.
 

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