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Controlled demolition without explosives

GregoryUrich

Graduate Poster
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
1,316
Here is an interesting discussion about gravity driven collapse based on a demolition using essentially only gravity.

What I find interesting, is that the video analyses clearly show a short free-fall followed by an impact causing reduced acceleration to be observed. This is the "missing jolt" or "force amplification" that Szamboti and MacQueen are on about which is in fact exactly what Bazant and Zhou predict. Essentially this demolition in question is nearly a pure Bazant and Zhou model.

The comparison to WTC1 is especially interesting because in WTC1 there is no "jolt" (observed deceleration), which Szamboti and MacQueen claim demonstrates controlled demolition. On the contrary, this single empirical result (theoretically consistent but not statistically significant) shows that there should be a "jolt" in a controlled demolition of this type. Furthermore, in WTC1 we have no observed freefall because as Greening and Benson correctly assert the is continuous contact between the upper and lower parts. The requirement of "force amplification" as postited by Szamboti and MacQueen is simply a misapplication of the Bazant and Zhou model of the most optimistic scenario. What actualy happened in WTC1 was so far from the most optimistic scenario that applying that scenario to observed phenomena cannot produce meaningful conclusions.
 
Gotta say the title is a little misleading. How is a non-explosive gravity driven collapse, IN ANY WAY, controlled?

TAM:)
 
One can set up a non-explosive, gravity-driven, controlled demolition quite easily. First the structure is weakened, then a trigger is applied. No reason that trigger has to be explosives. One can apply an eccentric load through cables, for instance.

The advantage to explosives is their timing can be very precisely controlled, and their action is positive. Other mechanisms are more gradual. So the explosive method can sever many remaining connections at once, thus allowing more safety in the structure in the moments leading up to demolition.

If you don't care quite so much where the structure falls, however, then the timing requirements relax, and there's no reason why you should use explosives.

To the OP, interesting find. Whether or not there's a "jolt" seems to me would be entirely a function of geometry. The more square the collapse, the more likely one would see a "jolt." And like you say, engineered processes are more likely than accidental ones to produce a square impact.
 
I stand corrected, but is such a "non explosive" controlled demolition practical, in terms of keeping it secret from people???

TAM:)
 
Probably not.

I did, once, propose a covert non-explosive demolition using vast quantities of expanding foam, but nobody took me up on it. Pity. [/derail]
 
maybe the NWO had hundreds of operatives dress up like painters and electricians, and instead of doing their painting and electrical work, they were severing the steel columns with their invisi-torches.

TAM;)
 
I did, once, propose a covert non-explosive demolition using vast quantities of expanding foam, but nobody took me up on it. Pity.

Yeah, I'm sure no one would've noticed a massive (and still expanding) ball of foam where the building used to be with bits of masonry stuck all over it.
 
Expanding foam is flammable... it goes away in the Pile. Disappearing evidence!!1!
 
The requirement of "force amplification" as postited by Szamboti and MacQueen is simply a misapplication of the Bazant and Zhou model of the most optimistic scenario.

The BZ scenario is not the "most optimistic" one, not if you believe in the laws of physics.

What actualy happened in WTC1 was so far from the most optimistic scenario that applying that scenario to observed phenomena cannot produce meaningful conclusions.

I would rewrite this as follows:

What actually happened in WTC1 was so far from the BZ scenario, that makes implicit and explicit assumptions both in favor of collapse and survival without quantifying the net result of competing effects, that applying that scenario to observed phenomena cannot produce meaningful conclusions. It can, however, tell us something about the quality of peer review that the paper received.
 
Metamars I wouldn't complain about the quality of peer reviews if I were you; your delightful little "movement" is renowned for its highly dubious peer reviews.
 
What exactly is a "gravity driven collapse" and was this term used in scientific literature prior to the glorious inception of 9/11 truth?
 
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Hell-
I'm still trying to figure out what other kind of collapse there is...

Well, there could have been rocket engines on the roof, aimed downwards.

Best part of that idea is, it explains the "faster than freefall" claim. :D
 
Well, there could have been rocket engines on the roof, aimed downwards.

Best part of that idea is, it explains the "faster than freefall" claim. :D
I'd edit my post, but youse guys wuz two kwik:
I am excluding things that are not physical--like "financial collapse", "Emotional Collapse", etc.
I doubt that those are gravity-driven.
 
The BZ scenario is not the "most optimistic" one, not if you believe in the laws of physics.

We've talked about this before, and I'm still waiting for you to propose a more optimistic scenario. The root of your statement above is in confusion over the definition of the word "scenario". Considering additional energy loss terms in the BZ scenario has no bearing on whether the scenario itself is more or less optimistic than any other, unless you can demonstrate that these additional energy terms are absent from other scenarios, and you have made no attempt to do so.

Dave
 
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We've talked about this before, and I'm still waiting for you to propose a more optimistic scenario. The root of your statement above is in confusion over the definition of the word "scenario". Considering additional energy loss terms in the BZ scenario has no bearing on whether the scenario itself is more or less optimistic than any other, unless you can demonstrate that these additional energy terms are absent from other scenarios, and you have made no attempt to do so.

Dave

In the BZ scenario, all of the kinetic energy of the WTC top can potentially be used to buckle column segments in the topmost floor of the WTC bottom. There are three reasons why this is false.
1) Elastic energy loading would not mysteriously and magically stop at the bottom of the topmost story (until the collapse front descends below it), but rather continue propagating downward at 5100 m/s. Where does the elastic strain energy come from, below the impact floor? Ultimately, it comes from the Kinetic Energy of the top.
2) Elastic energy loading of the impacting top would not magically and mysteriously be zero, which necessarily follows from assuming a rigid top, as BZ do. Rather, it would also propagate at 5100 m/s upwards (as Gordon Ross told you, long ago). Where does the elastic strain energy of the top come from? It comes from the Kinetic Energy of the top.
3) There is no accounting in BZ for Kinetic Energy imparted to the WTC bottom, while in reality, in an axial strike, the column lengths bounded by the elastic wave fronts described in 1) and 2) would undergo a macroscopic acceleration, hence they would have a kinetic energy imparted to them. Where does this Kinetic Energy come from? It comes from the Kinetic Energy of the top. (I.e., the kinetic energy that the top had before impact.)


The energy sinks described in 1), 2), and 3) mean that much less energy is available to buckle columns, anywhere along the WTC bottom, including the area that BZ claimed would buckle first, which is along the topmost floor of the bottom. So, even without calculating their exact value, I still know that the Kinetic Energy source in BZ's scenario has to be adjusted downwards in the more physically realistic scenario. Hence, BZ is not the "most optimistic" scenario.

Frankly, at least for a technical audience, it shouldn't be necessary to elaborate what a "more optimistic" scenario would be, given the above. If I were attempting to be quantitative, then I'd have to elaborate a great deal, including mathematically. However, since you ask, and since most people at JREF are not technical (or so I would assume):

A scenario that is far more optimistic than the Bazant Zhou scenario, given an axial strike, is the more physically realistic one where elastic waves propagate along the lengths of the columns (until reflection from the ground and the top of the WTC top). Furthermore, it'd be both more optimistic and more physically realistic to account for the macroscopic acceleration of the columns. (Note: peak stress would probably occur after first reflection, but guesstimating from Goldsmith part(c), noted below, it is still nowhere near what BZ implies.)

In other words, this more optimistic, yet also more realistic scenario looks very similar to the BZ scenario, except that the columns are treated as elastic rods - all along their lengths, for both the top and the bottom of the WTC.

Have you seen the graphs that I uploaded, here, part (c), for the case of elastic rods colliding longitudinally, a free one against another fixed at it's opposite end? Notice that the elastic waves propagate in both directions, away from the impact surface, until first reflection. Notice also that these elastic waves define a region of kinetic energy corresponding to velocity = 1/2(v1,0 + v2,0).

I will be posting graphs of Love's solution of a rigid mass hitting a fixed elastic rod within a week, or so, at the 911forum.freeforums.org, and here. I believe that I can also get my hands on the analytical solution graphed by Goldsmith in part (c), within a couple of weeks. If so, I can graph that, also, with values roughly corresponding to the WTC scenario. Based on calcs I have already done, I expect to find that BZ implies almost 2 orders of magnitude higher peak strain energy density than a more realistic treatment would predict. *

Ultimately, I want to solve a more realist axial strike scenario, while still modeling as a single column line. That means variable mass at every h, and variable spring constant every h, also, and gravity loading. However, even to do that, I need to learn more theory. I'm not sure, but as an interim step, I think that if I relearn my LaGrangian analysis and model each column length as a spring, this problem would be tractable analytically and numerically on my PC, and provide a reasonable approximation. Ultimately, though, I'd like to solve using coupled wave equations with non-column masses modeled as rigid, considered attached every h. Right now, I don't know how to do that, and at the rate I'm going, it'll probably take me at least a year. For a professional applied mathematician who works in PDE's, it would probably take 2 days, maximum.....

In case any mathematician or quant type person reads this, besides looking at clawpack, there is another PDE solver that might allow for an easy solution called diffpack.


* I haven't proved this, but I believe that static gravity loading of the bottom will have negligible efflect on the propagation of the elastic wave. I expect that it will have a significant effect on the macroscopic kinetic energy transfer to the base, but in terms of peak stress, because the loading is in the same direction as initial elastic wave propagation, I expect that these effects will be most significant only after the first reflection from the ground level. That is more than enough time for the speed of the top to have been halved.
 

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