Contradictions needed!

[Nucular]

Hi Peter - what's the Morg?

 

[LW]

There are hundreds of 'em, Ruby. You'll have those guys reeling in no time.

You are being very, very optimistic.

You see, for most contradictions there exists a convoluted way to interpret the text so that the contradiction vanishes.

You can start with the creation myth. There are two versions in Genesis and they're slightly different.

That one is presented to fundamentalists so often that they have a standard answer: the second one is not an independent creation story but a short recap of the real story given before.

Some time ago in another forum a biblical literalist expressed the claim that all archeological finds have supported the Bible. I then asked him about the book of Daniel, whose version of the fall of Babylon is contradicted by all existing evidence, both archeological and historical writing. In particular there are two places that cannot be conciled with historical record:

(Dan 5:30-31 (or 5:30-6:1, depending on verse structure)):
30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

According to historic record, it was Cyrus who concured Babylon. Also, Darius was not a Mede but also a Persian, and the kings Cambyses and Smerdis ruled between his and Cyrus's reigns.

(Dan 9:1)
1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Again, Darius wasn't a Mede and his father was not Ahasuerus but Vishtaspa (or Histaspes in Greek form). Ahasuerus (Xerxes in Greek) was his son.

The only reply that I've gotten from that literalist is that he would examine the evidence. This was a week ago, and still no further reply.

 

[Ruby]

Thanks for the link, Ruby .

I'll be joining that particular forum in a few minutes (if not after I finish the post, sometime later tonight). Golly gee, will these people get upset if go by the username "Yahweh"? If Yahweh is already taken, I'll go by "Philosopher Yahweh".

I am well versed on the New Testament, I know my way around the Old testament, and I'm going to begin working on familiarizing myself with the Book of Mormon.

I know I'll have quite a good time on that board. How do I know, from this quote on the forum's header...

Oh cool!! I have not been on the forum in a few days due to Labor day weekend. Look forward to seeing you there!

(this is my 1000th post! )

 

[Ruby]

riginally posted by Ruby




And are you doing that to ‘save them”? Is this for them or you? Is this the same old converting with new paint?

I don't know. That's all I can answer for that.

You “can’t” or do not yet wish to? There is a great difference. As “ getting trapped into it again” lol again BS!!!… I have a friend who said her poor son is always getting dragged though the mud, I reminded her that no one was dragged through the mud without first self tying on the rope.

No one can trap or force you to debate.

Right. I get myself trapped....but trapped nontheless!!

That is for sure you are a good, kind and sweet being.

Thank you!!

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

I can understand your problem, but as Panhanrishi says, you just have to let it go. Tell them you have said what you believe to be true, and thank them for their time. Then drop it.

As you have recently been a Xian and going to church, only to see one massive Xian contradiction forced on you, it is probably best to leave this sort of thing alone for a while. You will not be able to change their minds, it is only something that they will have to work out for themselves, just as you did. Just give them the evidence that you have seen for yourself.

I was brought up a Catholic, and, while I am glad I have dropped all that stuff, my parents are still quite firm in their belief, (although not the dogmatic people they once were).

They too knew that being total believers in the teachings of the Church only led to absurdity too. So, like most people, they have reached an accomodation between what they know is reasonable in the world and what they feel gives them comfort in faith. In absolute terms, this is a nonsense, but they are happy to live with these contradictions. And I am happy for them to be like that. They are not hurting anyone, (now....), with dogmatic adherence to a 'faith'.

I am sure there will come a time when I stop posting on that forum. I've had a nice break recently....but want to go back on.

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: Contradictions needed!

You must be one of those people who actually enjoy banging your head against a wall.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Ruby]

On the subject of whether or not it's even worth doing at all, I say hell ya! Telling the truth about the contradictions in the Bible and defending it isn't wrong, no matter how many religious people get offended in the process. You have nothing to apologize for. And you have nothing to feel guilty over when it starts to get a little fun!

Thanks. It's nice to hear someone does not think me insane for posting on that forum.

 

[Ruby]

Hi Ruby

I don't think you should end the debate - don't you find it really weird to see how irrational people can be no matter what you throw at them? I think it's worth it just for the "wow" value

Thanks! It was truly mind blowing to me to read the posts by all these Christians heavy into debate with each other on the meaning of scripture. I was seeing it all in a different light.

Regarding contradictions - most contradictions in the Bible have some kind of pat, legalistic answer, which usually relies heavily on exploiting abiguity and sometimes sacrificing assumed meaning to temporarily score points (then forgetting that they've 'discovered' a whole new Biblical message the next time you talk to them).

It does help that I've had years of bible study. In the lists of contradictions, I know so many that can be explained away by fundamentalist christian. I know the aruments and pat answers. Some are pitiful...some are logical......few are logical.

I started that one on this site (a very very quiet board) - I'm called Doubtful there; it was particularly fun there because I was working with their facts and figures, doing research only when a point was challenged, and slowly realised that this was rather a strong point! A longer version is here, although I shamefully neglected that and the debate died (I'm Will on that one btw, my real name). But yeah, there's quite a lot of online stuff, which I link to in those threads, to do with the origins of written language (obviously languages were around long, long before, but it's much harder to argue without physical evidence), and it's pleasant because they come from academic sources with no atheistic motivation.

I would like to check out that thread.

So yeah. Good luck, I think you should stick with it Ruby!

Thanks!!!!

 

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Peter - what's the Morg?

The Morg - The Mormon Collective: You WILL be assimilated, Amen

Peter

 

[Pahansiri]

Thanks. It's nice to hear someone does not think me insane for posting on that forum.

Ruby I in no way think you insane at all, I believe you are just the very same steps most take when walking away or backing away a bit from a belief.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

I've been gone a while. What's going on? Are you no longer a Christian?

I am a very liberal Christian.....pretty much Unitarian in my beliefs now.

 

[Ruby]

That whole Jacob/Esau thing really got my goat, when we used to discuss it in sunday school (in the Morg, adults get to go to sunday school, too)
Jacob is blessed of god (but god can't arrange things so that he's the first born?). If you read Genesis 25 - 33 just look at Jacobs personality. He lies, cheats, steals, His wife steals (rachel) and he is a consumate coward - so much so, that when God tells him to return home to meet with his brother (who he has seriously wronged) he sends his servants AND HIS WIVES on in front, in case Esau is in the mood to kill anyone.

Long story short, Jacob's a b****rd, and is blessed by God. Esau shows love and forgiveness and gets the dirty end of the stick.

Peter

It's good to hear someome express what I have always felt about that bible story.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby I in no way think you insane at all, I believe you are just the very same steps most take when walking away or backing away a bit from a belief.

That's what I surmise too!!