Consumer Reports for the Paranormal

[Ashles]

Well if you're not disputing the actual number then what's the problem?

If you are disputing the number (which you claim you're not) then do you have another source of information?
If so could you link to it?

If you agree with the $300 million figure then we can discuss whether that money is well spent by the people who phone psychic hotlines.

 

[Garrette]

Originally posted by jzs:

The point, which still escapes you, is that they said the cost of a reading is X dollars, and a psychic claims to do Y readings per day, therefore the total cost is 365XY.

No, the point was and is this:

Originally posted by CFLarsen:

How about spending money on fake psychics?

But you insist on missing it.

That's okay. Ashles took you up on your request for data.

Now you're finding reasons not to accept that.


We can all come out of this happy, though.

I'll keep this thread as an anecdote when someone provides me an anecdote of skeptics being obtuse.

 

[T'ai Chi]

But you insist on missing it.

That's okay.

The point still flies right by garrette, as do the questions he is avoiding.

I'm asking, now read this carefully... how spending $ automatically translates into being a bad thing. If you don't want to address it, that is fine. Just say so.

I have said (and you have ignored)

"I'm asking you to show that the number means it is harmful."

and

"Do you necessarily view all of it as harmful?"

and

"One can't implicitly assume that a large cost = large loss. That's not necessarily the case; one would have to demonstrate that."

I'll keep this thread as an anecdote when someone provides me an anecdote of skeptics being obtuse.

You do that.

Now will you actually address the point that I clearly raised (again), or bring up irrelevant stuff (again) ?

Will Ashles provide the actual source so we can see how the data was collected, when, by whom, and with what error?

 

[T'ai Chi]

If you are disputing the number (which you claim you're not) then do you have another source of information?
If so could you link to it?

Why would I have a source to someone I didn't even claim to exist?

It is up to you to provide the source for your data. The actual source, not just a page that has a single number on it!

 

[clarsct]

WAit Wait Wait

Am I getting this correctly, jzs?
Are you seriously questioning that the money spent on psychics is, in itself, harmful? That the fact that people are being defrauded by these con-artists isn't harmful in some way? That they can do nothing they claim but still charge the money for it isn't harmful to those taken in? Are you aware of the goals and express mission of the JREF? If CFLarsen hadn't referred to you as 'Justin', I would be tempted to say that Jambo has a sock.

On a personal note, I usually to not refer to CFLarsen as 'Claus' because I have never met him and do not feel we're on a first name basis. Same with 'Justin' and jzs.

Back to the topic, maybe we need a seperate message board devoted to just this topic. It would be a way to share information. A blog or somesuch.
Just trying to think here....

 

[T'ai Chi]

Are you seriously questioning that the money spent on psychics is, in itself, harmful?

I'm asking for some real numbers, with verifiable sources that have a description of how those numbers were obtained, and an explanation of how the $ spent is necessarily a bad thing.

Say I (hypothetically) spend $100 on a psychic. Some advice I get helps, some doesn't. Of that $300, or whatever, number spent, how much of it was spent on things that helped? You'd, I assume, say all of it, and I'd say probably some fraction of it.

On a personal note, I usually to not refer to CFLarsen as 'Claus' because I have never met him and do not feel we're on a first name basis. Same with 'Justin' and jzs.

You can call me Justin, no problem.

 

[CFLarsen]

Say I (hypothetically) spend $100 on a psychic. Some advice I get helps, some doesn't. Of that $300, or whatever, number spent, how much of it was spent on things that helped? You'd, I assume, say all of it, and I'd say probably some fraction of it.

OK, so you are arguing that there are some parts of a psychic reading that are helpful to the caller.

What parts are those?

 

[Dr Adequate]

It is up to you to provide the source for your data. The actual source, not just a page that has a single number on it!

Do you read your own posts? Or have you decided that this would be a waste of time?

"Mark Plakius, managing director of Strategic Telemedia, estimates that psychic hotlines are a $300 million-a-year industry in the United States and account for about one-third of the total "1-900" market. The average call brings in around $40 (SouthCoast Today, 03/22/1997)."

 

[Garrette]

jzs,

It is illuminating that you chide Dr. Adequate for answering a question you say was addressed to me and then chide me for not answering questions you have addressed to Dr. Adequate.

You have addressed absolutely zero of your questions about how much of the expended $ are harmful to me. You have, instead addressed them to Dr A and CFLarsen.

Please please please please please keep track of what you say.

 

[Garrette]

But I'll bite:

100% of the $ spent on psychics and mediums by people whose reasoning is anything other than entertainment or research is wasted and harmful.

100% of the $ received by psychics and mediums is fraudelently received.

Howzzat?

 

[Ashles]

Is this the point at which jzs ignores the fact that the information has a source, or declares that the source isn't good enough.

Obviously we couldn't just accept this amount of $300 millon and try to drive the discussion on from there.

 

[T'ai Chi]

OK, so you are arguing that there are some parts of a psychic reading that are helpful to the caller.

What parts are those?

I'm still waiting for one to show that it is all harmful.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Do you read your own posts? Or have you decided that this would be a waste of time?

Still no direct link to any actual source.

 

[T'ai Chi]

100% of the $ spent on psychics and mediums by people whose reasoning is anything other than entertainment or research is wasted and harmful.

100% of the $ received by psychics and mediums is fraudelently received.

That is an opinion. I'm looking for how do you know that?

Any peer reviewed studies?

 

[Ashles]

Still no direct link to any actual source.

So sources don't exist if there is no direct internet link to them?
The fact that they are provided is irrelevant?

This is pretty poor jzs.
It is a well researched marketing site - there is no real reason to disbelieve the figure other than to bog down the discussion and avoid addressing the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on these hotlines every year.

Or will you refuse to believe even that if we can't provide a direct link for you?

 

[Garrette]

Yes, jzs, my statement is an opinion. As such, it carries exactly as much weight as the anecdotes it is intended to counter.

Which point you still miss or ignore.

In addition to which, the point you have taken has been addressed quite well by Ashles.

 

[CFLarsen]

I'm still waiting for one to show that it is all harmful.

Yes, you have made that clear. That doesn't answer the question, though:

What parts of e.g. this reading - from your own material - are helpful to the caller?

01 KING: With John Edward of "Crossing Over" fame. His new book, "After Life." And we go to your calls. Pretoria, South Africa. Hello.

02 CALLER: Hello. My name is Nicole.

03 KING: Yes, Nicole.

04 CALLER: Can you hear me?

05 KING: Yes. Go ahead.

06 CALLER: Yes. I'd like to make contact with my dad that passed away two years ago from cancer.

07 EDWARD: OK, stop right there. I can try to make that -- you know, I'll try to make a connection with you, but the first thing I have to say for everybody that's watching, whenever you go see a psychic or a medium, the most important thing is not to divulge too much information because the more information that -- the more information you provide, then what happens is, it's less that the medium can actually use because now I know your dad's passed and now I know he passed from cancer and I know he passed two years ago. So if he comes through, I could basically say to you, Oh, yes, your dad's OK, and you'll probably be very, very happy. But I really didn't validate for you that your dad is there.

So the first thing I'm going to tell you is I -- I'm not connecting with your dad. However, I don't know if you have your mom who's passed or if there's another parental figure, like an older female who had crossed, who had congestive heart failure or who had problems with her chest. Do you know who that is?

08 CALLER: It could be my gran. My gran.

09 EDWARD: Would that be on your dad's side of the family, as well?

10 CALLER: I have two grans that have passed away, both mom and dad's side.

11 EDWARD: OK. I think I'm connected to the one that would be on your dad's side of the family. And your dad would have...

12 CALLER: Yes, she passed away from a heart attack.

13 EDWARD: OK. Your dad would be with also another male. So I don't know if he has a brother figure, as well. Where's the name Paul come in?

14 CALLER: We don't have a Paul in the family, as far as I know.

15 EDWARD: OK, well, I want you to remember this, OK? Connected to your dad's side of the family -- I could be off by the name, but I'm not going to be off by the initial. There's a P name, like Paul. So there's something...

16 CALLER: Peter.

17 EDWARD: Is that connected to your dad's side of the family?

18 CALLER: Yes.

19 EDWARD: OK, that's their way of just validating to you that I'm on the right side. And also, there's...

20 KING: What are they telling?

21 EDWARDS: Well -- hold on. There's also some type of reference -- I don't know if somebody had a military accident or if somebody had, like, an incident in the army. I don't know what this is, but there's, like -- they were scarred for life or they had some type of event, something they had to live with as a result of something in the army. Is that your dad?

22 CALLER: It could be my dad. He lived through the Nazi era, and as did my grandfather. They were both German.

23 EDWARDS: OK. And the...

24 CALLER: Could that be relevant?

25 EDWARD: Absolutely because it would be their way -- just know your family is together. And most importantly, like I said, this is really tough. It's a really, you know, quick type of session. But just know that they are together and they are OK.
Source

You claim that there are parts of psychic readings that are helpful to the sitter. Please point out where.

I have added line numbers to the statements. All you have to do is type the number(s). Nothing could be easier.

 

[crimresearch]

I suppose at this point it would be too much to expect to return to the thread topic..

But on the Consumer Reports notion...it would be nice if there were someone with the resources and the reputation for objectivity to test woo claims in front of the public, but....

Woos have done a good job of portraying any sort of testing as being biased against faith/belief.

And the law enforcement angle would usually require the victim to be willing to come forward, and admit that they had been duped...pretty unlikely in many cases I suspect.

 

[Ashles]

But on the Consumer Reports notion...it would be nice if there were someone with the resources and the reputation for objectivity to test woo claims in front of the public, but....

Well that's the real problem isn't it.

Nobody will ever be considered totally objective by everyone, that's why the testing procedures have to be set up to be objecive, unbiased, transparent and replicable.

But as we know it doesn't matter to many believers whether scientific testing shows no effect or not. Maybe the person running the test didn't believe strongly enough.

Remeber this isn't ever really about evidence - it is a question of why people want to believe in the first place - if someone has a real need to believe in the paranormal they will.

It is similar to how if people are determined to hate a racial minority they will hate them, never mind how many perfectly pleasant interactions they might have with people from that minority in real life.
Actual experience will be overridden by the underlying psychological need - whether it be to blame someone else for their own shortcomings or some other reason.

Obviously I'm not comparing believers to racists in terms of political outlook or morality - the example is to show how easily we can ignore evidence of any strength if it disagrees with what we want to believe, or have a need to believe.

Believers often believe in paranormal abilities because it gives them an illusion of control over the randomness of life.
Predict the future? Control people with spells? Know that existence doesn't end at death? Heal incurable conditions?
All these are massively desirable so there is little interest in taking on board any information which might contradict these things.

 

[Ashles]

Duplicate post.