Consciousness: what do we know?

I don't know whether consciousness can exist without matter. But, then again, I have no direct evidence that matter can exist without consciousness either. What makes you so sure it does?

Direct evidence in the Berkeley sense of matter may be obtained by placing the hypothetical matter-instantiated gun to one's hypothetical matter-instantiated temple and pulling the hypothetical matter-instantiated trigger.

Or just walking your hypothetical matter-instantiated body off a hypothetical matter-instantiated cliff.

This should let you know whether reality is objective or not. Let us know the results!
 
Or we may be a bored alien IPU or FSM playing a game in a mind-altering holodeck. Theorising all possibilities and all possible combinations of possibilities isn't possible (and it would be pointless even if it were possible since they'd all be equal in theory). Instead, we have to start with what we have: the experience of self-awareness and the theory of 'brain matter' somehow fascilitating a sham.

Well, I wrote that we experience a self and that I think this experience is somehow created by interactions between the brain and the environment. And compared this to mystical or religious experiences, that I also think are generated by the brain interacting witn the environment. Nothing else was supposed or implied. Seems I have not managed to express my ideas propperly, possibly due to my poor English. I´ll try again- the self is, just like all the other feelings, sensations, experiences, whatever, generated by interactions between the brain (OK, actually the body, with its hormone glands, nervous system, etc.), the data stored within it, and its surroundings.

Furthermore, if we don't agree to continue accepting shared experience as reality and to maintain the definition of theory as speculative model then, frankly, science collapses as a purposive or workable discipline.There is a clear categorical difference between what you believe in becoming your experience and what you experience becoming your belief; with the difference being theory-driven pseudoscience at worst and protoscience at best and, real, data-driven science. (That's why amaterialism, the view that 'matter' is really 'energy' and that there is no clear evidence that brains produce consciousness is not a 'belief system'.)

"Shared experience" is a relatively good way of describing reality, but there will alway be those who will say that altered consiousness states prevents the use of such definitions.

My point was also that what you belive may interfer with what you experience. Regardless of the real nature of selves.

I really don´t think that there is no clear evidence that brains produce consciousness. I think there´s plenty of evidence that seems to indicate that brains do produce selves and very little -if any- evidences that selves are not products of brains.

There's a real world we interact with that seems stable enough, that's for sure. But when we look at the sub-atomic level we find that our theory of 'matter' (which originally meant an indivisible solid) is wrong.

I fail to see how the changes in the concept of matter have suffered since say, the XIX century, would help the side of those who defend the idea that brains do not produce consiousness. "Matter" is composed of a lot of empty spaces. Its may perhaps be described as being formed by interactions between particles that also behave as waves. But still, we all are experincing the very same set of limitations, we all experience phenomena that can be described by the same mathematical equations. So, regardless of our understanding of the nature of matter, this similarity is IMHO a very nice piece of evidence that there is a physical or material world. Sure, one could say that some "great solipsist" has set these rules, but IMHO such lines of reasoning are quite useless.

And, regardless of the definition of exactly what is matter, the basic fact that damages to the brain do produce alterations of the self, so, this can be seen as a nice indication of evidence that selves are product of human brains.
 
Do you contend human level (self, ego, id, whatever) is the only example of consciousness? If so, I disagree; the lowest level of 'consciousness' is yet speculation.

No. I think one could say it comes in types and degrees. A creature may have consiousness of its surroundings (simplistic examples- hot, cold, clear, dark, chemical traces that may indicated food, etc.) and the status of its body (simplistic examples- hungry, damage to parts of its body, etc.). Some, for example, will gather more data than others, they will thus be "more consient" than others. But still, these creatures may not experience a "self", at least in the human meaning. Maybe some equivalent.

Unknown, but irrelevant to my point.

Not necessarily. If we experiences selves because they are something that can be generated by the human brain (just like religious experiences -and why not?- Qualia), then its relevant...

Current physics, in the sense 'material world' takes us back to Democritus' atoms.

Not exactly, since there are great differences between Democritus atoms and the current concepts of "elemental particles" such as quarks. And still, we all experience the very same phenomena, the very same limitations, and the very same mathematical equations can be used to describe the movment of an electron here in Brazil or well, wherever you are typing from. So, reality is the same for we all.
 
Belz... said:
You're just dancing around definitions here. "Solid" is just a useful term that means next to nothing beyond molecules. It's still MATTER even if it isn't SOLID.
You've got your solid materialists, then you've got your matter materialists, then you've got your physical materialists and your ephemeral materialists, not to mention your immaterial materialists.

One way or the other, you're a damned materialist!

~~ Paul
 
You've got your solid materialists, then you've got your matter materialists, then you've got your physical materialists and your ephemeral materialists, not to mention your immaterial materialists.

One way or the other, you're a damned materialist!

~~ Paul

Monsters from the id!



...woah! Sorry about that. I've simply seen that one too many times.
 
I have asked similar questions, and it all comes down to this:

Can an experiential entity exist without knowing it is experiential? That is, can an automaton "experience" things non-conciously.

I would posit that every thing is experiential, although not concious. I think the specific cross-over between the two is memory. In my thinking, *you* do not exist except in comparison to the *you* of yesterday, 5 seconds ago, etc. For example the sense you have of yourself (i.e. the internal monologue of what you are thinking) now only exists because you have a memory of a different internal monologue.
 
Monsters from the id!

...woah! Sorry about that. I've simply seen that one too many times.
The material is nothing but the consolidation of the immaterial. So, there are those of us who claim to be immaterialists. Monsters from the id I say! :D
 
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