Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

[Antiquehunter]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/2...in-black-south-carolina-neighborhood-despite/

(Sorry about the link from fox news)

So - on the surface, my 'keep your government out of my business' side of me says that she should be perfectly entitled to fly whatever damn flag she wants.

However, then I thought - what if that was a Nazi flag? Would I feel the same way?

Not being an American, and having only infrequently visited the southern bits of USA, I don't really understand the emotional attachment to the confederate flag, nor do I necessarily understand all its symbolism. I just remember the Dukes had it painted on the General Lee.

So - thoughts / comments on this issue? And if someone could clarify the symbolism behind the flag in a couple of sentences or less, I would appreciate it. Does flying the confederate flag equate to support for slavery?

 

[cwalner]

So - thoughts / comments on this issue? And if someone could clarify the symbolism behind the flag in a couple of sentences or less, I would appreciate it. Does flying the confederate flag equate to support for slavery?

Not quite. To those who fly it, it is an act of nostalgia, in remembrance of a time that is lost, quite literally 'Gone With the Wind'. It evokes memories of a life like Scarlet OHara had at the beginning of the movie.

The problems with it are that it is memory of a time that nobody still living was actually alive to remember, and may not be very accurate. Furthermore, one of the vital things that allowed such people to live in luxury was a large slave labor force.

This is why to modern African Americans, it is often seen as a reminder of their bondage and they see those flying at as supporting that bondage.

 

[Aepervius]

Freedom of speech. he is free to have a confederate flag, his neighbor are free to call him names for that, but no one on either side can force the other to change its stance.

 

[Antiquehunter]

I totally understand the freedom of speech argument. No one has tried to imply that flying the confederate flag falls under 'hate speech'? Is the symbolism not that strong (as say, a nazi flag would/could be?)

 

[Chaos]

I totally understand the freedom of speech argument. No one has tried to imply that flying the confederate flag falls under 'hate speech'? Is the symbolism not that strong (as say, a nazi flag would/could be?)

"Freedom of speech" doesn´t just include speech - it also includes the written word, as well as images, neither of which are technically "speech". So to me it is obvious that "hate speech" likewise can include things that aren´t technically "speech".

 

[Antiquehunter]

"Freedom of speech" doesn´t just include speech - it also includes the written word, as well as images, neither of which are technically "speech". So to me it is obvious that "hate speech" likewise can include things that aren´t technically "speech".

Yes - I understand this. But whereas certain images have been classified as 'hate speech', my understanding is that the confederate flag is not seen as being something so acrimonious as to label it as such. Or has such an attempt been made & failed?

I mean - people can walk around with signs that read God hates (a British term for cigarettes) and these signs haven't been deemed 'hate speech' so it must be a pretty darned difficult court to please.

 

[Chaos]

Yes - I understand this. But whereas certain images have been classified as 'hate speech', my understanding is that the confederate flag is not seen as being something so acrimonious as to label it as such. Or has such an attempt been made & failed?

I mean - people can walk around with signs that read God hates (a British term for cigarettes) and these signs haven't been deemed 'hate speech' so it must be a pretty darned difficult court to please.

I don´t know... have they not been deemd hate speech, or have they been deemed hate speech but any attempt at prohibiting them has failed?

 

[WildCat]

I totally understand the freedom of speech argument. No one has tried to imply that flying the confederate flag falls under 'hate speech'? Is the symbolism not that strong (as say, a nazi flag would/could be?)

Even hate speech is protected under the 1st Amendment, so it really doesn't matter.

 

[Dancing David]

Not quite. To those who fly it, it is an act of nostalgia, in remembrance of a time that is lost, quite literally 'Gone With the Wind'. It evokes memories of a life like Scarlet OHara had at the beginning of the movie.

And it is not uncommon up here in Illinois, people display it to say "I am a rebel", which is strange. Now for some it also says "I am a racist" and they do mean that

I just wish more people flew the correct flags for the CSA

http://www.csacurrency.com/csaflag/index.htm

 

[Antiquehunter]

Even hate speech is protected under the 1st Amendment, so it really doesn't matter.

This could be a lack of understanding on my part of US law, but I was of the understanding that the freedom of speech protections were not applicable if it was deemed 'hate speech'.

I had a look at wiki (for what that is worth) and while the US definitely has a specific view, not all forms of 'hate speech' are protected by the 1st Amendment:

Laws prohibiting hate speech are unconstitutional in the United States, outside of obscenity, defamation, incitement to riot, and fighting words

Presumably, flying a flag - any flag - is none of these things (and would be hard to extrapolate as such), so... fly 'em if you got 'em.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Hate speech is not a hate crime, as demonstrated by KKK marches and the continued efforts of the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Lamuella]

this person can fly any flag they like. I'm free to have whatever opinion I like about it.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

This could be a lack of understanding on my part of US law, but I was of the understanding that the freedom of speech protections were not applicable if it was deemed 'hate speech'.

In general, in the US, hate speech is protected. There are some exceptions, most of which would, as you mentioned, fall under broader prohibitions like telling people to go out and commit an act of violence.

There are, however, hate crime laws at both federal and state level which apply to violent crimes against a person which were motivated by specific categorizations (race, religion, sex, national origin at the federal level some states add in sexual orientation and/or gender identity). At the federal level, it can let the federal government step in a prosecute a given hate crime, this is primarily a protection against certain areas not prosecuting crimes against certain groups of people. At the state level, they are primarily to add additional jail time to the given crime.

Examples:
White guy beats up a black guy. Not a hate crime.
White guy beats up a random black guy while yelling "I'm tired of you damn porch monkeys!". Hate crime.
Black guy beats up white guy. Not a hate crime.
Black guy beats up random white guy while yelling "I'm tired of you damn crackers!". Hate crime.

 

[Bikewer]

I live in Missouri, which was at best a "divided" state during the Civil War. I am continually surprised at the sheer volume of "Confederate" flags on display around here. The full-window decal on the back of your pick-em-up truck's cab is popular.

I have no doubt that there's a heavy element of racism in such displays. A certain "in your face" aspect. These guys talk blithely about their "cultural heritage" as noted above, and will not even entertain the notion that the flag is a symbol of fear and hatred to millions of black citizens.
Again as noted above...Would the Nazi flag be treated similarly?

 

[Ferguson]

While a teenager, I lived for about 2 years in Georgia and in Lousiana, and I think it's kind of complex.
There are certainly individuals who fly it in a racist way, but for a lot of people it seems more like a regional pride thing, maybe like a Bavarian flag or Flemish flag (which might be a good analogue since that's also used by some with a kind of racial connotation... maybe like the Flag of Ulster too?).
Even here in Michigan you see it on occasion, but usually then it has the "rebel" connotation, i.e. anti-government, pro-militia.

So I'd say the main meanings are
*Rebellion against the Federal government, "State sovereignty."
*Rebelliousness in general.
*Southern pride.
*Racism.

I would have no idea where the split would be, quantitatively. I feel like these days the overt racism meaning is probably a minority, but that might just be wishful thinking.

 

[sarge]

So - thoughts / comments on this issue? And if someone could clarify the symbolism behind the flag in a couple of sentences or less, I would appreciate it. Does flying the confederate flag equate to support for slavery?

I live in North Carolina, and was once stationed in the Capitol city of South Carolina. In every instance that I was able to discern the actual intention behind displaying the Confederate flag, racism was involved. In most every instance, there was an intention to offend and provoke Black Americans with the display. All of the "heritage not hate" rationalizations were patently false. Of course, it is certainly possible that some number of Rebel Flag displayers actually harken back to a lost war and identify so strongly with ancestors they never met and a way of life they never knew that they feel compeled to display a symbol they have no actual connection to. I just never met any of these Rebel Flag wavers.



My very first day in South Carolina, my wife and I were on a house hunting trip in advance of our report date. It's only a 2 hour drive from where we were (Fort Bragg) to where we were going (Fort Jackson), so we drove down for a weekend to check the place out.

We arrived in Columbia at about lunch time, and the first fast-food place we discovered was Maurice BBQ. It claimed to have "real" BBQ - an obvious lie as the only "real" BBQ to be found in the US exists only in southeastern North Carolina. Still, we were hungry and it was on the interstate, so we stopped - right under the 100' flag pole with the Garrison size Rebel Flag.

My African/Puerto Rican wife and I sorta hung in front of the menu board, well back from the order counter because we weren't familiar with the menu. A couple of locals came in after us, and the teen-ager behind the counter looked past the spouse and I and asked to take the locals order. No biggy, she probably recognized that we weren't ready to order. After taking their order, she disappeared and a new counter person came up to take our order. The former counter person was White, the new one was Black - not the sort of thing you generally attracts ones attention, except that after taking our order, they swapped back again.

The wife found us a seat and I wandered around the place, needing to rest my backside after sitting in the car for two hours. I saw a stand with religious tracts in the corner - the kind that used to get handed out around the neighorhood I grew up in. I get a kick out of them, so I grabbed a couple to read while I waited.

The first was titled something like "Why the darker races were better off under slavery". No **** - right there on display in the restaurant. I pointed them out to the (white)girl behind the counter. She turned to the Black girl and motioned for her to talk to me. The tracts were there at the instance of the owner, Maurice Bessinger, as were copies of his books. The guy actually owned (owns?) a chain of successful BBQ restaurants, all of which displayed these messages. THIS WAS IN 2000 - barely 10 years ago.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Does flying the confederate flag equate to support for slavery?

Well, it equates to support for the Confederacy, which supported slavery. So, by default, yes.

 

[Skepticemea]

The Union Jack was co-opted by the National Front, a racist organisation in the UK, so it became connected with racist beliefs. It now appears to have been taken back by the normal, ordinary racist population and there is less of a connection with racial prejudice.

The difference I see with the Jack and the Confederate flag is that it represents a defunct state. Flying it surely shows an identification with the things the Confederate states stood for?

 

[Cainkane1]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/2...in-black-south-carolina-neighborhood-despite/

(Sorry about the link from fox news)

So - on the surface, my 'keep your government out of my business' side of me says that she should be perfectly entitled to fly whatever damn flag she wants.

However, then I thought - what if that was a Nazi flag? Would I feel the same way?

Not being an American, and having only infrequently visited the southern bits of USA, I don't really understand the emotional attachment to the confederate flag, nor do I necessarily understand all its symbolism. I just remember the Dukes had it painted on the General Lee.

So - thoughts / comments on this issue? And if someone could clarify the symbolism behind the flag in a couple of sentences or less, I would appreciate it. Does flying the confederate flag equate to support for slavery?

While I feel thats its in poor taste to fly this flag I feel its her right to do so. A nazi flag would be worse but its still her right to fly even that evil symbol.

I come from Georgia and I have no real feelings for the flag even though my ancestors fought and died under this banner. There is a poem written in the late 19th century about this flag and the last line says "Never to be unfurled" . Well it is often unfurled. We may not agree with the person doing the unfurling but the constitution says they have the right to do so. Same with the nazi flag.

 

[SumDood]

I was born and raised in Oxford, Mississippi, so the confederate flag has always been the symbol of the University of Mississippi to me. I brought my 'rebel flag' to every basketball game, along with most of the student body. Within the past decade, they changed the design to be a capital "M" formed with similar stripes.

And they had to get rid of Colonel Rebel, which I guess I understand. But what really gets me is freaking Lucas. I stuck by him and defended the prequels, but he wouldn't let the university use Admiral Ackbar as their new mascot. Screw you, George. [/end rant] Examples: White guy beats up a black guy. Not a hate crime. White guy beats up a random black guy while yelling "I'm tired of you damn porch monkeys!". Hate crime. Black guy beats up white guy. Not a hate crime. Black guy beats up random white guy while yelling "I'm tired of you damn crackers!". Hate crime. What I don't get is if a guy yells 'dang queer' whilst beating up someone, its only a hate crime if the victim actually is homosexual.