Compassion for Theists?

[Piggy]

I'm an atheist skeptic in the Bible Belt. Often tempted to leave family and friends and light out for the territory where people have a little more sense and tolerance.

It's hard to feel free here. You feel like if everyone knew what you thought, you'd be an outcast. In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.

Meanwhile, the Xians go on about how they're "persecuted". Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.

Still, we can't just shut up and sit down. We can't sit idly by and let the "God squad" erode our liberties, teach nonsense to our kids, and stuff the pockets of charlatans.

But in the last week I've had two encounters that put me in a quandry.

The details don't matter. But here's the gist....

Most folks who believe in all that religious claptrap are sincere. They can't see past it. And they're never going to.

They're never going to.

Obviously, the tendency toward religious thinking is built into our brains. We are pattern-seeking, meaning-creative, anthropo-centric critters. If all memory and evidence of religion were destroyed at midnight EST tonight, it would rise up again spontaneously tomorrow. People would "see" and re-invent God all over again, and nothing we say could stop them.

So my question is this....

How can one be a compassionate skeptic?

CAN one be a compassionate skeptic?

 

[Dogdoctor]

You have to look at the big picture. Who are you? What do you value in life? Who are these religious people? What do they value in life? Can you come up with a workable compromise. Work towards that. Re-evaluate your beliefs again and again. Express your ideas to others again and again to check for your blind spots. Change yourself and learn to live with them because they will be around for a long time. If you aren't willing to suffer for your beliefs then you may need to be silent about them. So yes you can be a compassionate skeptic, but the real question is do you want to be one?
eta: I went to add something on to this and it posted all by itself by me clicking on the s button.

 

[Raphael]

One can be a compassionate human being, regardless of being a skeptic or not. If the tendency for religious thinking is "built into our brains", why do you, or I for that matter, not believe? If all evidence and memory of Religion were destroyed at midnight, perhaps You and I would become some of those "people" that re-invent religion.

 

[Piggy]

If the tendency for religious thinking is "built into our brains", why do you, or I for that matter, not believe? If all evidence and memory of Religion were destroyed at midnight, perhaps You and I would become some of those "people" that re-invent religion.

We don't believe because it's just a tendency, not an absolute. Most people will exhibit religious thinking, but not all. I doubt that you and I would be among those who would re-invent religion, because once you've truly seen behind the curtain, and accepted what you've seen, you can never really believe in the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz again.

 

[slingblade]

Compassion? Every time a Christian screws me over, and doesn't even kiss me first, dammit, I find I have less and less compassion, consideration, or concern for the group as a whole.

I mean, man, it just happened to me, again. A supposedly and self-professed Christian woman used lies, threats, yelling, anger...all those good, compassionate Christian values, to get me kicked out of my position. Damn it.

I try, though. I've met some wonderful people on this forum who are also Christians, and they're just good folks. I've no problem with them, and think their faith does them credit. But every time a Christian behaves in an "unChristian" manner and it does me harm, I develop a little more hatred. Sorry, but I do.

 

[TragicMonkey]

What people believe, what people believe they believe, and how people act are three entirely separate things. Only most people manage to delude themselves into thinking they're not.

 

[Piggy]

You have to look at the big picture. Who are you? What do you value in life? Who are these religious people? What do they value in life?

Sorry, but I don't understand all that. I'm not one for philosophy. But I will say, "these religious people" are my family, my co-workers, my fellow citizens.

Can you come up with a workable compromise.

No. Fundamentalists don't compromise.

Re-evaluate your beliefs again and again. Express your ideas to others again and again to check for your blind spots.

I already do that. They don't. That's a big part of the quandry, don't you see.

Change yourself and learn to live with them because they will be around for a long time.

Well, that's the point of the post, isn't it? HOW?

If you aren't willing to suffer for your beliefs then you may need to be silent about them.

It's not a question of suffering for my beliefs. It's a question of actually making a difference. The fundamentalists have decided to suffer for their beliefs, and look where that's gotten them, where that's gotten all of us. Doesn't seem like a very good tactic to me.

you can be a compassionate skeptic, but the real question is do you want to be one?

Not really. I'd much rather dictate to others that they should be rational and reasonable and give up all this nonsense and superstition. But that's not going to work. So the "real question" isn't what I want to be, but what it's best to be, what it's most effective to be. The real question is "What can work?"

 

[Raphael]

Piggy:
The beliefs of most people are shaped by circumstance. A Muslim mother rears a Muslim child. I was raised in an atheist household, I am an atheist. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that had I been that Muslim child, that I would automatically see thru the Religious environment I was in. I'm interested in your circumstance. Do you identify an event(s) that pulled you from the Christian flock?

 

[Piggy]

I've met some wonderful people on this forum who are also Christians, and they're just good folks. I've no problem with them, and think their faith does them credit. But every time a Christian behaves in an "unChristian" manner and it does me harm, I develop a little more hatred. Sorry, but I do.

I'm with you, brother. I get angry.

I get angry with my mother, who raised us all in the church even though she knew it was a lie, just so we'd be "socialized", and who endorses my sister-in-law telling Xian lies to my neice and nephew because they'll "figure it out later".

I get angry at the assault on science by people who would never cure a disease or solve a real problem because their perception of reality is fundamentally (no pun intended) warped. I get angry at how many kids are lied to, who are denied the true jaw-dropping mysteries of this world and given a sham god in their place.

But how can I be angry at people who just can't help but believe? How can I morally be angry at people who are doing their best by their own lights, but who still contribute to all the evils of religion?

What do I say, how do I behave, toward people who honestly believe, with every fiber of their being, that if I don't convert, I'm going to be tortured forever, and so they try to save me out of love? It's them who are pitiful, who are wasting their lives on an illusion. How can I be angry at them?

It's not their fault that they can't see past it. They're not duped willingly. They really believe this stuff. They're victims of a vicious self-verifying scheme of thought, controlled by madmen and manipulators.

That's my dilemma.

 

[ruach1]

I'm an atheist skeptic in the Bible Belt. Often tempted to leave family and friends and light out for the territory where people have a little more sense and tolerance.

An atheist/skeptic in the Bible Belt--wow, I feel for you. I've been there, sorta' and believe me (us) it ain't no fun. However, you might want to consider fully leaving family and friends. (Guess I really didn't need to say that, now did I?)

It's hard to feel free here. You feel like if everyone knew what you thought, you'd be an outcast. In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.

Ouch. More pain.

Meanwhile, the Xians go on about how they're "persecuted". Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.

Being "persecuted" is a lame power game. Don't buy it. Look at the news. Look at history, and there you'll find the real persecuted people.

Still, we can't just shut up and sit down. We can't sit idly by and let the "God squad" erode our liberties, teach nonsense to our kids, and stuff the pockets of charlatans.

Choose your battles. If I had to fight everything that came my way like this, I'd probably go nuts.

But in the last week I've had two encounters that put me in a quandry.

The details don't matter. But here's the gist....

Most folks who believe in all that religious claptrap are sincere. They can't see past it. And they're never going to.

They're never going to.

Obviously, the tendency toward religious thinking is built into our brains. We are pattern-seeking, meaning-creative, anthropo-centric critters. If all memory and evidence of religion were destroyed at midnight EST tonight, it would rise up again spontaneously tomorrow. People would "see" and re-invent God all over again, and nothing we say could stop them.

So my question is this....

How can one be a compassionate skeptic?
CAN one be a compassionate skeptic?

I think this is a question of inner security. I've been in situations like this and was totally secure in my beliefs, and it didn't bother me that those around me were as narrow-minded. Then there were times in my life when I wasn't so secure, and I seldom felt at ease. I would suggest being strong in the things that make you strong and increase your inner security from them.

Good fortune to you, Piggy. And yes you can be compassionate as a skeptic. Its just a lot easier from a position of inner strength.

 

[Piggy]

Piggy:
I'm interested in your circumstance. Do you identify an event(s) that pulled you from the Christian flock?

I'm a lucky turtle.

I subscribe to the baby-turtle theory of life. Some hatchlings make it to the sea because they're strong and fast. But just as many get eaten by crabs and gulls who are stronger and faster. Others make it to the sea simply because there are too many hatchlings for the gulls and crabs to eat.

There was no event. But I was the youngest of 3 boys and the youngest kid in my neighborhood but one, and (boys being boys) it didn't take me long to learn that people will lie to you for their own personal reasons that have nothing to do with reality or your best interests. The whole Santa Claus thing confirmed that. So I learned to mistrust everything I heard until I could prove it was true.

I applied that same strategy to Sunday school, and quickly decided that my teachers didn't know what they were talking about. Talking snakes? Every animal on a boat? It was all a load of hooey. And if all that was bunk, then their god was bunk and wasn't going to toss me into a lake of fire for not believing it.

 

[ruach1]

Compassion? Every time a Christian screws me over, and doesn't even kiss me first, dammit, I find I have less and less compassion, consideration, or concern for the group as a whole.

I mean, man, it just happened to me, again. A supposedly and self-professed Christian woman used lies, threats, yelling, anger...all those good, compassionate Christian values, to get me kicked out of my position. Damn it.

I try, though. I've met some wonderful people on this forum who are also Christians, and they're just good folks. I've no problem with them, and think their faith does them credit. But every time a Christian behaves in an "unChristian" manner and it does me harm, I develop a little more hatred. Sorry, but I do.

You and I have a lot in common Sling. I'm a Christian, and I've been "screwed over" in the aforementioned manner more times than I can count on my hands and toes. And I do get mad, and I do judge "them" as a group. And guess what? Some Christian or something about the religion comes along and makes up for this poor behavior. Its enough to drive one insane!!!

 

[ruach1]

I'm with you, brother.

Uh Piggy...

I'm pretty sure Slingblade is a girl (woman).

 

[Piggy]

I think this is a question of inner security. I've been in situations like this and was totally secure in my beliefs, and it didn't bother me that those around me were as narrow-minded. Then there were times in my life when I wasn't so secure, and I seldom felt at ease. I would suggest being strong in the things that make you strong and increase your inner security from them.

I am absolutely secure in my beliefs. Hell, they're not even "beliefs". Does one "believe" that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa? Does one "believe" that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews, the homosexuals, the "unfit"? Does one "believe" that life evolves? I think not. Rather, one understands these things.

But when I look at this person in front of me, this human being, who really suffers because she thinks she isn't "smart like

" and cries, in all sincerity, because of that, and who only knows her way, can only see her way, who has given her whole life to it, is devoted to it and finds meaning in it.... How can I say to her, "It's all a lie", whether by word or deed?

And how could she believe me if I did?

 

[Piggy]

Uh Piggy...

I'm pretty sure Slingblade is a girl (woman).

Sorry. I'm new.

 

[slingblade]

You and I have a lot in common Sling. I'm a Christian, and I've been "screwed over" in the aforementioned manner more times than I can count on my hands and toes. And I do get mad, and I do judge "them" as a group. And guess what? Some Christian or something about the religion comes along and makes up for this poor behavior. Its enough to drive one insane!!!

I know. It seems as though I expect Christians to somehow be more than human, and above fault. Look, I used to be a Christian; a Bible-thumping Fundie of the worst sort. And I got hurt so badly in that lifestyle, by people who were supposed to be on my side, as it were, that it's made me bitter and cynical. Some day, maybe I'll grow up and get over it. In the meantime, I just wish that I didn't have to hear about how wonderful it is to luv Jesus while a knife is being twisted in my back.

 

[slingblade]

Sorry. I'm new.

Is okay. It's a masculine "handle," so of course. Welcome, Piggy!
Thanks, Ruach.

 

[Piggy]

Is okay. It's a masculine "handle," so of course. Welcome, Piggy!

Thanks. Btw, I *love* those Heinlein quotes!

 

[ruach1]

Is okay. It's a masculine "handle," so of course. Welcome, Piggy!
Thanks, Ruach.

No problemo, and good luck on that teaching gig.

Can't you just feel the warmth in here?

I never knew R&P could do it!

 

[slingblade]

No problemo, and good luck on that teaching gig.

Can't you just feel the warmth in here?

I never knew R&P could do it!

Thanks, but I got tossed from student teaching Tuesday. They are graciously letting me try again in the fall.

Yes, it's getting a little mushy here. Someone bait a Fundie, quick, for crying out loud.